Stinkiest Trials In America
The Illicit Smashing of Who's Who Worldwide Excecutive Club

Worst Lawyer Of All Time; - The Who's Who Worldwide Registry Tragedy
Thomas FX Dunn demonstrates some thirty-eight discrete reasons to qualify himself
over and again as perhaps the worst lawyer of all time


Dirtiest trials of the Twentieth Century


The Who's Who Worldwide Registry Tragedy -
Reed Elseiver Ripoff of Seventy-Four Thousand Leaders and Role Models.

The largest executive club ever created. More than fifty-eight thousand members at the top.
CEO's and Presidents, Chairmen of the Boards of just about every major company in the U.S.
From the founder of the American Cancer Society and others like Georgette Mosbacher,
or the Chairmen of Coke, American Express, every major bank and stock exchangers,
a Presidential physician who personaifies the American Dream being worth it all.
Tens of thousands of accomplished people, all cheated by odiferous corruption,
all defrauded of their memberships by an egriously greedy postal inspector,
forever sealing the name of Martin Beigelman as the paradigm of nadirs,
possibly the single most corrupt Postal Inspector In USPS history.
Picture giving up your pension just a couple of years short,
because the payoff from Reid Elsevier was that huge.
Nope. Didn't even stick out a last couple of years,
wanting the immediate quintupling of salary.
So many... odious facts surround this case.
Your personal assistance is solicited.
A letter, an email, or a telegram,
or throw ten bucks at someone
maybe a quick phone call.
Free MisterShortcut.
Free the Who's Who'ers.


Reed Elsevier, Ltd, and its many hundreds of subsidiaries,
is the richest, most powerful and influential publisher on earth.

From the national phone book listing every lawyer in the US (who pay),
to science journals and seventeen or more Who's Who organizations,
the huge Lexis-Nexis or however the online jurggernaut is spelled,
with hugely expressed influence. Scores of powerful publications.
Their corruption of those in government service is legendary.
their actions so abhorrent the U.S. government banned them,
literally ordered them not to open any offices in the USA.
their influence continues to become more pernicious,
more pervasive, as their acquisitions continue.
This foreign corporation buys human beings.
Please, pick up that phone and get irate..
If you like, get angry first, then call.
Ask the Prez to issue a pardon,
please add your voice today.


PLEASE PUT A DENT IN THE PERVASIVE CORRUPTION IN GOVERNMENT!
If you allow them to do this to the Who's Who'ers today,
it's an open invitation for them to continue on this way.
This is just one of their vicious conquests among so many,
revealed in one of the dirtiest trials of the Twentieth Century,
one of the dirtiest trials in federal history,
The Who's Who Worldwide Registry Tragedy.
Call Congress, call the White House.
Demand a pardon for the Who's Who-ers.
Please.     Call today.


(Reed Elsevier has been "pagewaxing" many Who's Who sites, which means illegally erasing them,
so the effort was engendered to create many hundreds of different versions, and upload them to hundreds of separate websites.
So, if you find dead links, you have a few mirror sites linked to each of the primary Who's Who Registry sites)

Who's Who Mirror Site 1       Who's Who Mirror 2       Who's Who 3       Who's Who 4       Who's Who 5       Who's Who Mirror 6     

Dirtiest trials of the Twentieth Century



There are now hundreds of huge websites with the full story of the Who's Who Worldwide Registry tragedy,
a necessary action because of the illicit and undeniably reprehensible actions of Reed Elsevier, Ltd.

Each "Dirtiest trials of the Twentieth Century" website contains more than 12,000 printable pages,
detailing how a handful of salespeople, each with a life and story all their own,
had everything taken from them by raw, base corruption in this great land.
Reed Elsevier, Ltd, and its hundreds and hundreds of subsidiaries,
is the richest, most powerful and influential publisher on earth.


Their corruption of those in government service is legendary.
This is just one of their vicious conquests among so many,
revealed in one of the Dirtiest trials of the Twentieth Century,
one of the dirtiest trials in federal history,
The Who's Who Worldwide Registry Tragedy.
Call Congress, call the White House.
Demand a pardon for the Who's Who-ers.
Please.     Call today.





                                                          Masters and Millionaires

5113
1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT EASTERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
2 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - X
3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, : CR 96 1016(S-1)
4 v. : U.S. Courthouse
5 Uniondale, New York BRUCE W. GORDON, WHO'S WHO
6 WORLD WIDE REGISTRY, INC., : STERLING WHO'S WHO, INC.,
7 TARA GARBOSKI, ORAL FRANK : OSMAN, LAURA WEITZ, ANNETTE
8 HALEY, SCOTT MIChaveLSON, : STEVE RUBIN, and MARTIN
9 REFFSIN, :    TRANSCRIPT OF TRIAL
10 Defendants. :February 20, 1998
11 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - X 1:30 o'clock p.m.

12 BEFORE:

13 HONORABLE ARTHUR D. SPATT, U.S.D.J. and a jury
14 APPEARANCES:
15 For the Government: ZACHARY W. CARTER
16 United States Attorney One Pierrepont Plaza
17 Brooklyn, New York 11201
By: RONALD G. WHITE, ESQ.
18 CECIL SCOTT, ESQ. Assistant U.S. Attorneys
19 For the Defendants: NORM AN TRABULUS, ESQ.
20 For Bruce W. Gordon
170 Old Country Road, Suite 600
21 Mineola, New York 11501

22 EDWARD P. JENKS, ESQ.
For Who's Who Worldwide
23 Registry, Inc. and
Sterling Who's, Who, Inc.
24 332 Willis Avenue
Mineola, New York 11501
25
(cont'd)


HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5114

1 APPEARANCES (cont'd):

2 GARY SCHOER, ESQ. For Tara Garboski
3 6800 Jericho Turnpike
Syosset, New York 11791
4
ALAN M. NELSON, ESQ.
5 For Oral Frank Osman
3000 Marcus Avenue
6 Lake Success, New York 11042

7 WINSTON LEE, ESQ.
For Laura Weitz
8 319 Broadway
New York, New York 10007
9
MARTIN GEDULDIG, ESQ.
10 For Annette Haley
400 South Oyster Bay Road
11 Hicksville, New York 11801

12 JAMES C. NEVILLE, ESQ.
For Scott Michavelson
13 225 Broadway
New York, New York 10007
14
THOMAS F.X. DUNN, ESQ.
15 For Steve Rubin
150 Nassau Street
16 New York, New York 10038

17 JOHN S. WALLENSTEIN, ESQ.
For Martin Reffsin 18 215 Hilton Avenue
Hempstead, New York 11551
19

20 Court Reporter: HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR
United States District Court
21 Two Uniondale Avenue
Uniondale, New York 11553
22 (516) 485-6558

23
Proceedings recorded by mechanical stenography, transcript
24 produced by Computer-Assisted Transcription
25

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5115

1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N

2

3 (The following takes place in the absence of the

4 jury.)

5 THE COURT: Good afternoon.

6 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, good afternoon.

7 I want to put one thing on the record.

8 THE COURT: Sure.

9 Where is Mr. Wallenstein? Where is

10 Mr. Geduldig?

11 Someone go out to get them.

12 MR. TRABULUS: While they are doing that, I have

13 a Rule 17 subpoena, Rule 17(b) and (c) subpoena that I ask

14 you to sign.

15 THE COURT: Is everybody here now?

16 MR. WALLENSTEIN: Mr. Lee is on his way down.

17 THE CLERK: Geduldig is still missing.

18 THE COURT: You can all sit down.

19 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the

20 proceedings.)

21 THE COURT: I am signing this subpoena. However,

22 it calls for information which may not be admissible at

23 the trial. It calls for mailing lists that were used by
24 Marquis Who's Who, in essence.
25 MR. TRABULUS: I was not trying to introduce the

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5116

1 mailing lists themselves, just reference to their use.

2 THE COURT: Whatever, records or otherwise, I

3 don't know if it is admissible in this trial.

4 You better get some author ity that says because

5 other people may commit frauds, I can do it, or that it is

6 custom and usage in the industry to make these

7 misrepresentations -- alleged misrepresentations.

8 MR. TRABULUS: That's the line I was thinking

9 about.

10 THE COURT: I have concern about that. It is

11 custom and usage in the home improvement line to make

12 fraudulent bank loans. Does that make it admissible in

13 the trial and acceptable practice? Because the practice

14 itself is not legal, why should it be admissible.

15 In other words, is it a defense?

16 You better get some law on that. And here is the

17 subpoena.

18 MR. TRABULUS: Thank you.

19 THE COURT: Where is Mr. Geduldig?

20 I am going into the jurors and thank them that

21 they are here on time, and tell them I have held everybody

22 up.

23 Don't strike me down.
24 Any objection?

25 MR. TRABULUS: No.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5117

1 MR. NEVILLE: Thank you, your Honor.

2 MR. JENKS: Thank you; no.

3 MR. WHITE: No objection.

4 (The following takes place in the jury room.)

5 THE COURT: How nice to see all of you together

6 in this spacious, ample room, where you can have all the

7 space.

8 I have been tied up in something, and I will be

9 tied up a few more minutes. I want to thank you for being

10 prompt and punctual. Forgive me of keeping you waiting

11 for this period of time. I wanted to say hello to you and

12 welcome you again. I am very happy to have you.

13 A JUROR: We are happy to be here.

14 THE COURT: Good.

15

16 (Whereupon, at this time the following takes

17 place in open court.)

18 THE COURT: Good afternoon, Mr. Geduldig.

19 MR. GEDULD IG: I apologize, Judge. I think this

20 is the first time I have ever been late, and it is today,

21 which is particularly bad.

22 THE COURT: The jurors buzzed at 25 after 1:00

23 that they were here and ready to go. We should be here
24 before time. I will not lecture. I am not a school
25 teacher, but because of the number of people, especially,

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5118

1 it is important to be here on time. I don't like to keep

2 the jurors waiting. They are a very dedicated group.

3 They are entitled to this kind of courtesy.

4 MR. GEDULDIG: They are, Judge.

5 THE COURT: Bring in the jury.

6 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, earlier this week your

7 Honor asked the government to produce to the defense any

8 tapes Mr. West made in connection with the Garden City

9 hotel, in connection with the Oxford Who's Who

10 investigation. We retrieved that file from the closed

11 file of the postal inspection. We have the tapes. We

12 have a copy made for each of the defense attorneys. From

13 the way it looks, the sounds of things, Mr. West will be

14 here on Monday in any event.

15 THE COURT: Have you turned it over to them?

16 MR. WHITE: We just picked it up.

17 THE COURT: At a break show them what you have.

18 MR. WHITE: The one thing I wanted to ad was that

19 the tapes were all contained in the Oxford Who's Who file,

20 which was the enclosed files.

21 Some of them were either mislabeled or misfiled,

22 and in addition to Oxford employees, there are some people

23 on the tape who were former Worldwide employees as well.
24 THE COURT: Which you didn't know about?
25 MR. WHITE: Which I didn't know about. And I

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5119

1 listened to it last night at midnight.

2 THE COURT: You are now definitely turning it

3 over?

4 MR. WHITE: Of course.

5 MR. SCHOER: Tapes we have not seen?

6 MR. WHITE: Yes.

7 THE COURT: You will have an opportunity to see

8 them, certainly over the weekend, if not today. And you

9 can use it over the weekend if you wish.

10 MR. WHITE: Nothing pertaining to these

11 defendants.

12 MR. TRABULUS: Any other 3500 material relating

13 to Mr. West that might have been in that file other than

14 tapes? Things may be 3500 material relating to his own

15 business, or the tapes which we know now which is Who's

16 Who Worldwide?

17 MR. WHITE: The tapes were kept separate from the

18 paper files. The paper files are on their way. They were

19 separate. I understand they are not related, because

20 anything relating to We st, was in the West Who's Who file,

21 not the Oxford file.

22 THE COURT: You didn't know anything about that

23 until now?
24 MR. WHITE: Yes, your Honor, and I was quite
25 perturbed.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5120

1 THE COURT: You are turning it over?

2 MR. WHITE: Yes.

3 THE COURT: Let me ask, are you students back

4 there?

5 A SPECTATOR: Yes.

6 THE COURT: What school are you from?

7 A SPECTATOR: Tuoro Law School.

8 MR. TRABULUS: The young man with the necktie is

9 my son. He wanted to see a portion of the trial. He has

10 the week off.

11 THE COURT: He is in Tuoro Law School?

12 MR. TRABULUS: No, he is in high school.

13 THE COURT: A future lawyer?

14 MR. TRABULUS: Maybe.

15 MR. JENKS: I can't believe he made him wear a

16 tie.

17 (Whereupon, the jury at this time entered the

18 courtroom.)

19 THE COURT: Formally, and for the record, good

20 afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. I have already greeted

21 you and expressed my admiration for your dedication in

22 this trial, which is above and beyond.

23 You may proceed.
24
25

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5121

1 S T E V E N W A T S T E I N,

2 called as a witness, having been previously

3 duly sworn, was examined and testified as

4 follows:

5

6 THE COURT: You are previously sworn and you are

7 still under oath, Mr. Watstein.

8 THE WITNESS: Yes.

9 THE COURT: Mr. Geduldig, were you still

10 cross-examining?

11 MR. GEDULDIG: I think I was, Judge.

12 THE COURT: You are going to move along, right?

13 MR. GEDULDIG: I am.

14

15 CROSS-EXAMINATION (con t'd)

16 BY MR. GEDULDIG:

17 Q Mr. Watstein, I think we had given you a copy of the

18 transcript we were looking at the other day?

19 A Yes.

20 Q I have handed up to you 1325, which is the transcript

21 of the conversation you had with Annette Haley on November

22 11th, 1994. If memory serves me correctly, where we

23 finished off yesterday, we were going through whether or
24 not a delicatessen owner was sufficiently prestigious to
25 be in the registry.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5122
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 Do you remember that?

2 A Yes, sir.

3 Q What I would like to do now is turn to page 9 of the

4 transcript.

5 I stand corrected, turn to page -- did we speak

6 about -- did you have a conversation with Ms. Haley on

7 this occasion concerning the benefits you would get as a

8 prosp ective member?

9 A Yes, sir.

10 Q And we read that attribution at the very bottom of

11 page 6, where Annette tells you about the discounts on

12 long distance and international phone calls and such?

13 A I believe so.

14 Q Now, turn to page 7, a quarter of the way down, right

15 after you say, yeah, where there is an attribution to

16 Annette, where she says to you: But let me tell you, for

17 a five-year membership, it's $350 now.

18 Watstein, right.

19 Annette, and $99 in December of 1995 when the

20 registry is released.

21 You see that?

22 A Yes, sir.

23 Q This conversation is November of 1994; is that
24 correct?
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5123
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 Q She is telling you, you pay 350 now and an additional

2 $99 in approximately 13 months; is t hat right?

3 A Yes.

4 Q And it goes on.

5 Watstein, so, 350 and 99 --

6 Annette, you'll be in there until the year 2000.

7 Watstein, that's pretty good.

8 Annette, or if you want to be in there for the

9 rest of the your life, that's $550 now.

10 Watstein, I think five years is sufficient.

11 Annette, and $99 in December.

12 Watstein, gotcha.

13 You used that phrase a lot, gotcha?

14 A Yes, sir.

15 Q Were you sending a little subliminal message to these

16 people on the phone?

17 A No, sir.

18 Q And you go on with some of the benefits right after

19 the gotcha. Annette says: With the lifetime you will

20 have a choice of a second wall plaque or the CD-ROM

21 software package. It comes free with the lifetime.

22 Watstein, oh, I see.

23 Annette, otherwise, it's $99. If you buy it with
24 the five year it would be $99 .
25 Watstein, oh, I see, for $100 more I get the

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5124
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 lifetime and --

2 Annette, exactly. And you'll get the CD-ROM with

3 it.

4 Watstein, so, lifetime is $550, plus $99?

5 Annette, $99 in December of 1995.

6 Watstein, gotcha.

7 You see that?

8 A Yes, sir.

9 Q She is telling you about the split billing, right?

10 A Yes.

11 Q You understood she was talking about split billing,

12 right?

13 A Not as it is defined, but, yes, sir.

14 Q There were going to be two payments?

15 A Yes, sir.

16 Q And she was telling you, if you joined and took the

17 five-year membership, the fee would be, I think she said

18 $550, plus 99, plus an additional charge if you wanted the

19 CD-ROM?

20 A That's correct, sir.

21 Q Okay.

22 She was telling you if you took the lifetime you

23 would get the CD-ROM for free, or an additional plaque if
24 you chose?
25 A Yes, sir.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5125
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 Q That was pretty clear?

2 A I think it was crystal clear, yes, sir.

3 Q Then you go on to a conversation about renewal rates

4 on page 8, virtually in the middle of the page, right

5 after Annette's uh-huh; do you see that?

6 A Uh-huh, yes.

7 Q And Annette says -- I lost it -- she says uh-huh.

8 Watstein, what's your renewal rate? How happy

9 are the members?

10 Annette, everybody.

11 Watstein, everybody renews?

12 Annette, everybody, in fact we do give the

13 people, say they take a five year membership.

14 Watstein, right.

15 Annette, within a year or two, we give them the

16 option of upgrading to a lifetime.

17 Watstein, right.

18 Annette, I would say 85 percent do.

19 Watstein, really?

20 Annette, yep?

21 Watstein, so you would say that in terms of the

22 renewal rate, 95 percent, 100 percent.

23 You saw that?
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q And she said to you the renewal rate was 85 percent,

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5126
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 didn't she?

2 A No, sir.

3 Q Well, she said to you, just above that -- go from the

4 bottom where it is you, Watstein, from the bottom up,

5 Watstein, Annette, Watstein, Annette, all right? So it is

6 the fourth attribution from the bottom. You see that?

7 A Yes.

8 Q Annette says, I would say 85 percent do; do you see

9 that?

10 A I believe it modifies --

11 Q I am asking you if you see it?

12 A Certainly.

13 Q And the next two attributions are just one word.

14 You say really.

15 She says, yep.

16 Then you come in, Watstein, so you would say that

17 in terms of the renewal rate, 95 percent to 100 percent.

18 On the next page Annette says 85 percent, right?

19 A Yes, sir.

20 Q And you heard her when you were talking with her on

21 the phone that day, November 11th, 1994, you heard her say

22 85 percent, did you not?

23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q And you responded by saying 95 to 100 percent; is
25 that right?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5127
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 A Yes, sir.

2 Q Were you trying to mislead her?

3 A No.

4 Q Was there a reason that you purposefully misstated

5 the number she gave you?

6 A Yes.

7 Q You were trying to gotcha her?

8 A No, sir.

9 Q And in any event, after you say 95 to 100 percent,

10 she corrects you and says 85 percent.

11 By the way, when you up that percentage, you

12 specifically mentioned renewal. You said, so you would

13 say in terms the renewal rate, 95 to 100 percent; correct?

14 A Yes, sir.

15 Q She corrects you to 85 percent; right?

16 A Yes, sir.

17 Q She doesn't say to you you are talking about

18 something different than I'm talking about, does she?

19 A No, sir.

20 Q She says 85 percent.

21 Watstein says 85 percent?

22 Annette, yeah.

23 Watstein, wow, that's really good.
24 Annette, renew their member -- in other words,
25 not even renew it, they, umm.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5128
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 Watstein, they pay their dues --

2 THE COURT: You have to slow down, Mr. Geduldig.

3 You have to go much slower than that.

4 First of all, if someone was following you

5 without reading the transcript, as anybody can, they would

6 have a difficult time doing that. Is the reporter

7 certainly is having difficulty.

8 MR. GEDULDIG: I apologize.

9 THE COURT: You have to slow down. You want the

10 jury to hear it and understand it?

11 MR. GEDULDIG: I have been talking to

12 Mr. Trabulus too long. The two of us go, and it is wind.

13 THE COURT: When he is asked to, he does slow

14 down.

15 MR. GEDULDIG: And I will try, judgment I

16 apologize.

17 Let me pick it up with Watstein saying wow,

18 that's really good?

19 Annette, renew their number -- I am sorry,

20 member. In other words, not even renew it, they, umm --

21 Watstein, they pay their dues or whatever?

22 Annette, yeah, huh, they upgrade to a life time.

23 Watstein, no kidding.
24 Annette, yeah, we giem the choice to
25 upgrade to a lifetime and almost everybody does.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5129
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 Watstein, 85 percent?

2 Annette, I would say at least.

3 Watstein, so maybe I should go for a lifetime up

4 front here, I guess.

5 Annette, well, it's up to you.

6 Do you see that?

7 A Yes, sir.

8 Q So, she is not even encouraging you to take the

9 lifetime. She is saying to you, do whatever you want to

10 do, it is your choice, right?

11 A That was the tactic, sir, yes.

12 Q She wasn't putting any high pressure on you?

13 A A tactic, yes.

14 Q She didn't say, a great idea, buy the lifetime, soak

15 some more money into this operation, did she?

16 A No, sir.

17 Q She said your choice, w hatever you decide, you do,

18 right?

19 A Her tactic, sir.

20 Q Tactic.

21 Did you ever hear mention from the government or

22 anybody else about a man named Tinny, gray haired man

23 working for Grossman -- I am sorry, Swinney,
24 S W I N N E Y.
25 A There was a gentleman in the witness room with me

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5130
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 yesterday, might have been the same gentleman, with gray

2 hair.

3 Q Did he tell you he upgraded?

4 A No, sir.

5 Q He wasn't forced to, he did it on his own?

6 A I have no knowledge of it.

7 Q Upgrading is what she is talking about here, people

8 upgrade?

9 A She is discussing two concepts at the same time, sir.

10 Q Then we go on on the same page in the middle, you are

11 talking, and you say as follows: Yeah, I see.

12 And what does this plaque look like?

13 Before we go on there, had you seen the plaque

14 before you made the phone calls?

15 A I am not sure.

16 Q You can't recall now if you have seen the plaque?

17 A I can't recall.

18 Q You saw the plaque, you just can't recall when you

19 saw it?

20 A That's correct.

21 Q In any event, you go on to say, yeah, I see, and what

22 does this plaque look like? We had a terrible experience

23 here.
24 Annette, the plaque is beautiful. The plaque is
25 really beautiful. It's a marble laminate. It has our

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5131
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 seal on it, it would be engaged. It would say, awarded to

2 Chuck C. Sampson, distinguished member of Who's Who

3 Worldwide.

4 Watstein, right.

5 Annette, the member named above is included in

6 the Who's Who Registry.

7 Watstein, right.

8 Annette, and at the bottom of the wall plaque it

9 says: Memberships are limited to those individuals who

10 have demonstrated outstanding leadership and achievement

11 in their occupation, industry or profession. We get

12 letters on it.

13 Watstein, so it's made -- Annette, the wall

14 plaque is beautiful.

15 Watstein, it's made out of marble?

16 Do you see that?

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q If you go up to where she starts talking about the

19 plaque, about a third of the way up from the bottom, she

20 says the plaque is beautiful, it's really beautiful, it's

21 a marble laminate. You heard her say that?

22 A I don't believe so. There was a pause in the tape at

23 that time.
24 Q It doesn't say pause in the tape?
25 A In the sound.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COUR T REPORTER
5132
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 Q A pause in the sound?

2 A Yes.

3 Q You remember the conversation clearly enough now to

4 say there is a pause in the sound over the telephone,

5 that's why you didn't hear marble laminate?

6 A In that particular case, yes, sir.

7 Q It wouldn't be that you were trying to mislead

8 Annette to say, yes, it is a marble plaque?

9 A No, sir.

10 Q You wouldn't do that?

11 A No, sir.

12 Q It would be a gotcha, where you hear what they say

13 but misrepresent what they say, encouraging them to leads

14 you on to do things that you wouldn't want to do?

15 A Is that a question, sir?

16 Q Yes.

17 A The answer is no.

18 Q You didn't do that.

19 So, you didn't hear her say marble laminate, and

20 you said it was made out of marble by mistake, because you

21 had not heard wha t Annette told you?

22 A My recollection is it wasn't clear, sir.

23 Q In any event, Annette having heard you say that it's
24 marble, she corrects you at the top of page 10 and says,
25 no, it's a marble laminate.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5133
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 Watstein, oh, I see.

2 Annette, marble would be too heavy to hang.

3 Watstein, I gotcha.

4 Annette, yeah, it's a marble laminate, it's

5 beautiful.

6 Watstein gotcha.

7 You see that?

8 A Yes.

9 Q She went back and corrected you?

10 A Yes.

11 Q And she didn't want to mislead you?

12 A In that instance, yes.

13 Q Going on the same page 10, talking about networking.

14 Watstein, these are all things by the way,

15 networking, plaques, the double-billing or B billing,

16 these are all things on the long ch ecklist that you and

17 Biegelman worked out; is that right?

18 A I can't answer it with a yes or no, sir.

19 Q There was a long list of things we spoke about

20 yesterday, topics you want to bring up in these telephone

21 conversations, you recall that?

22 A Yes.

23 Q And these things we are going through the tape, the
24 transcript now, those things appear in the long list that
25 you and I talked about yesterday?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5134
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 A Partially.

2 Q I think everyone was on that list.

3 In any event, let's go on.

4 Watstein then says about a quarter of the way

5 down the page, starting after your last gotcha.

6 Annette, and every year it's a little different.

7 Watstein, umm, now let me ask you this: In terms

8 of networking, which is really what the reason I called

9 you back --

10 Annette.

11 That computer package is the best. Now, say you

12 want to know every member in Michigan --

13 A place you are familiar with.

14 Watstein, right.

15 Annette, it would come up. Say you want to know

16 all the CFO's.

17 Watstein, right.

18 Annette, or say you may, don't want to go to the

19 CFOs, say you want to know all the directors that are in

20 Michigan.

21 Watstein, right.

22 Annette, okay. They would all come up. Then you

23 want to zero into a certain area. I want to know all the
24 areas in Michigan that are in the plastics industry. I
25 want to know then, the next one, I want to know all the

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5135
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 members that are in Michigan, that are in the plastics

2 industry, that make plastic screws, cause --

3 Watstein, really? No kidding.

4 Annette, different items. There could be plastic

5 bread boxes, plastic furniture. You want somebody that

6 makes screws. Then say you want to talk business on the

7 golf course. I want to know all the members that are

8 directors in Michigan that make plastic screws that play

9 golf.

10 Watstein, I see.

11 Annette, so you can zero in by any criteria with

12 that computer package. You know, how a CD-ROM works.

13 Watstein, oh, oh, sure, of course, of course.

14 She is explaining to you the CD-ROM?

15 A Yes.

16 Q And that's the item if you took the five-year

17 membership, you have to pay the $50 for and get free with

18 the five-year membership?

19 A All right.

20 Q Then you go to the other items we talked about the

21 other day, sucker mailing list.

22 You say at the top of page 1 1.

23 Watstein, let me ask you, in terms of the members
24 in general, am I going to end up on some kind of sucker
25 mailing list here?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5136
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 Annette, no. It is not in libraries, and

2 hopefully, you are not going to, but our members do get,

3 and receive a registry.

4 Let me stop for a second.

5 When you ran your Who's Who, you told prospective

6 customers that your book was in libraries, didn't you?

7 A That is correct.

8 Q And this Who's Who was telling people honestly,

9 truthfully and accurately, that their Who's Who was not in

10 libraries; is that right?

11 A I can't answer with a yes or no, sir.

12 Q That's what Annette just told you, didn't she?

13 A That individual person said that, yes.

14 Q You are saying Annette might say it this w ay and

15 someone else might say it a different way?

16 A Yes, sir.

17 Q You go on, you say, well, the members, I don't mind.

18 Annette, every single person, we have Fortune

19 500, million dollar companies here. Everybody has to be

20 interviewed to be in this registry. Not one person. And

21 there are people you read about in the media, names that

22 you know, companies that you know, they weren't in here

23 unless they were interviewed.
24 Watstein, so The famous people get
25 interviewed.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5137
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 Annette, yeah, everybody.

2 Watstein, really?

3 Annette, everybody.

4 Watstein, let me ask, in terms, so you're not

5 going to rent my name out to someone else?

6 Annette, no, definitely not.

7 Watstein, okay, okay, I just --

8 Annette, our organize -- no.

9 Watstein, we've had some bad experience being

10 telemarketed, people hocking us.

11 You were referring to your own company, I

12 suppose?

13 A No, sir.

14 Q That's the kind of things you did?

15 A We were engaged in telemarketing business in many

16 companies.

17 Q You were engaged in a criminal telemarketing

18 business?

19 A At that point in time, yes.

20 Q Annette goes on.

21 What can I say to you? If we do have a member --

22 Watstein, member, I don't worry about, cause they

23 will have been interviewed.
24 Annette, yeah, but, no, of course not, definitely
25 not, not with people we have, no.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5138
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 Now, when she says what can I say to you if, if

2 we do have a member, and then you cut her o ff.

3 What she was going to tell you is members could

4 conceivably use the names and addresses in the registry

5 and do it as they will, but her company does not sell the

6 names of the members in the registry to outside mailing

7 lists; isn't that right?

8 A Is that a question, sir?

9 Q Yes, is that right?

10 A Was she asking me that, implying that?

11 Q She was about to say that to you when you cut her

12 off?

13 A I don't know what she was about to say.

14 Q You cut her off?

15 A Yes, sir.

16 Q Do you remember that clearly, cutting her off?

17 A Not totally, no, sir.

18 Q You remember the other part about the marble laminate

19 wall?

20 A Yes, sir.

21 Q My question is:

22 When you heard the information coming out of

23 mouth of a telemarketer, like Annette Haley, and knew the
24 conversation was being recorded, and you knew you wouldn't
25 like what they were going to say because it wasn't going

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5139
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 to be a gotcha, did you purposefully interrupt the

2 conversation so they would not say the things that you did

3 not want to hear?

4 A No, under any circumstances, sir.

5 Q There was nobody listening to you. Mr. Biegelman was

6 not at your shoulder listening to these conversations when

7 you were having these tape recorded conversations, was he?

8 A No, sir.

9 Q You did it completely on your own?

10 A With the exception of one tape, yes, sir.

11 Q So you sat in a room someplace in Georgia, Florida,

12 or New Jersey, where you happened to be by yourself making

13 these calls?

14 A That's correct, sir.

15 Q And then we go on to seminars, another item on the

16 list.

17 Q This is almost the bottom of the page?

18 A What page?

19 Q Page 11, after the last attribution where Annette

20 said they don't sell the names to outside mailing lists.

21 Watstein, I see.

22 One other question, in terms of getting together

23 with other members -- Annette, yeah, we have business
24 seminars, we had one in December in Vietnam and Hong Kong.
25 Watstein, right.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5140
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 Annette, we, we were having one, I think. I

2 didn't hear anything about it, but I am sure it was a

3 success in South Carolina. We had a golf and tennis

4 tournament combined with some business seminars. So we

5 always have something.

6 Watstein, oh, really?

7 When was the one in South Carolina. That one I

8 would have attended.

9 And that 's a subject that you and Biegelman had

10 some discussions about, right?

11 A No, sir.

12 Q In any event, Annette goes on and says, yeah, that

13 was --

14 Watstein, Vietnam is too far for me.

15 Annette, months ago, it was months ago.

16 Watstein, months ago?

17 Annette, no, it was months ago. But I know

18 they're going to be having, you know, when you get that

19 quarterly magazine --

20 You say right.

21 Annette, always read that over. All the

22 information would be in there.

23 Do you see that?
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q And she is telling you the information regarding

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5141
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 seminars and business conferences and golf outings is

2 printed in the publication, Tribute?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q And that's where you get your infor mation, and she

5 gets her information?

6 A She didn't say that, sir.

7 Q Didn't she say read over the publication, the

8 magazine? She says, no, it was months ago, but I know

9 they are going to be having, you know, when you get that

10 quarterly magazine? She is talking about the Tribute

11 Magazine, right?

12 A Yes, sir.

13 THE COURT: You interrupt and she says always

14 read that over. All that information would be in there.

15 Isn't she referring to the seminars where the

16 company holding information about the seminars being

17 printed in the quarterly magazine?

18 A As far as me obtaining my information, yes, sir.

19 Q You don't know if she got the information from the

20 same place or not?

21 A That is correct, sir.

22 Q The information she gave you about the seminars could

23 well have come from the magazines?
24 A Possibl y.
25 Q You go on talking about famous people.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5142
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 Watstein says, would it list some of the famous

2 people that are members there?

3 Annette, oh, yeah.

4 We have been doing a profile on 25 outstanding

5 members, umm, with their picture, you know, people that

6 maybe have started businesses, that really have

7 outstanding stories. Although we do have the president of

8 Izod -- although we do have the president of Izod, we have

9 the president of Viacom, you know, major, major companies.

10 Watstein, and all those people -- Annette, I'm

11 not supposed to be telling you those names, because it's

12 like marketing, or soliciting.

13 Watstein, no, we don't want you to do that.

14 That was a little tongue and cheek, right? You

15 really did want her to do that?

16 A No, sir. I previously testified to that.

17 Q Annette says, but you will see for yourself.

18 Watstein, but all those people were interviewed

19 by in the same fashion?

20 Annette, yeah.

21 Watstein, no kidding.

22 Annette, everybody had to be interviewed in order

23 to be in the registry.
24 You see that?
25 A Yes, sir.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5143
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 Q And going over to page 13, there is a conversation

2 where she is asking you for some personal information

3 about maybe a fifth, 20 percent, or a quarter of the way

4 down from the top of the page, Annette starts talking and

5 she says, all right, let me just go over a few more things

6 and then you can call me back with the credit number.

7 Watstein, sure.

8 Annette, do you want the lifetime?

9 Watstein, yes, please.

10 Annette, okay, all right. It's Chuck C. Sampson,

11 all right? I'll get the address later, but right now I

12 need the name of a famous business magazine. She coughs.

13 You see how she coughs there, they write it in?

14 A Yes.

15 Q And the parts about the pause you say about the

16 marble plaque, there was no cough there?

17 A I have the voice going down lower, sir.

18 Q Nothing in the transcripts about a malfunction or

19 pause or lowered voice?

20 A My recollection is it was lowered sir.

21 Q Going back to the page, we can look it up.

22 Watstein goes back to the say -- Watstein goes on

23 to say, I guess the Detroit Free Press is the closest I
24 come to.
25 Annette, excuse me?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5144
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 Watstein, Detroit Free Pres s.

2 Annette that's --

3 Watstein, newspaper.

4 Annette.

5 Watstein says Detroit Free Press.

6 Annette, that's --

7 Watstein, a newspaper.

8 Annette, a newspaper.

9 Watstein, newspaper, yes.

10 Annette says, no, I wanted a magazine.

11 Watstein, you know, I really don't read any

12 business magazines. To tell you the truth -- Annette,

13 Success, Incorporated, CEO --

14 Watstein, put down whatever you want. Make it

15 up.

16 You wanted her to do that, didn't you?

17 A It had no importance, sir.

18 Q Of course it does. She puts it down, she is making

19 something up, it is just a shill, meaningless no, merit?

20 A No, sir, it is not a significant issue which magazine

21 a person read.

22 Q Why didn't you just give a magazine?

23 A Unimportant.
24 Q If we are trying to show how meaningless the registry

25 is, pointless the interview is, wouldn't it prove your

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5145
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 point if she asks for your favorite magazine, if you say

2 make it up, I don't care, and she does it?

3 A I don't think so.

4 Q You don't think so?

5 A No.

6 Q You didn't think to give her any magazine at all?

7 A Not in this case, it was unimportant.

8 Q You were not trying to gotcha, were you?

9 A No.

10 Q In any event, in response to what might be a

11 deceptive act on your part, she says, Fortune.

12 You say put down whatever you want. Make it up.

13 She continues, and says Fortune?

14 You say, you? And Annette says Fortune.

15 Watstein says, sure, make it up, sure.

16 You are insisting she make it up, right? You

17 will not let it go, will you?

18 A Sir, it was ins ignificant, a waste of time.

19 Q Give her a magazine, make it up, Newsweek, the

20 Wharton Business Record or something?

21 A There is no such thing.

22 Q A good reason to give it. That's what you were in

23 the business of, making things up?
24 A No, sir.
25 Q Annette says, sure you can make it up, sure.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5146
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 She says I also need the name of a favorite

2 vacation place.

3 You respond, Iron Ridge in Oak, Michigan, is that

4 right?

5 A Yes.

6 Q And she takes some more information from you.

7 This is a conversation you were recording for

8 Mr. Biegelman?

9 A Yes, sir.

10 Q You were going to write a critique or summary of the

11 circumstances surrounding this tape recorded conversation

12 and send it along with the tape to Mr. B iegelman?

13 A Not necessarily, sir.

14 Q Did you do it in this case?

15 A I have no recollection.

16 Q In any event, you hit virtually all the subjects that

17 you and I discussed, and you said were subject that you

18 were particularly interested in, right?

19 A You said that, sir.

20 Q Well, if I am wrong, say I am wrong.

21 We talked the other day about a list of subjects

22 that you like to bring up in these recorded conversations;

23 is that right?
24 A Part of the subjects, yes, sir.
25 Q And the subjects we mentioned were the percentage

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5147
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 accepted; is that right?

2 A Yes, sir.

3 Q And that was discussed here?

4 A I don't recall that.

5 Q The 85 percent, the five percent of the people who

6 were accepted, something l ike that?

7 A Yes, sir.

8 Q And 85 percent renewal rate? We talked about that in

9 this conversation?

10 A Not on that list, sir.

11 Q Let's go down the list. We only hit one so far?

12 A Yes, sir.

13 Q And we talked how people are nominated?

14 A Yes, sir.

15 Q How people are in business?

16 A I don't believe we discussed that.

17 Q Is Who's Who Worldwide Financial stable, not

18 discussed in this tape?

19 A Right.

20 Q Was everybody interviewed was discussed?

21 A Yes, sir.

22 Q The plaque made of marble, was discussed?

23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q Benefits received was discussed?
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5148
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 Q Is it prestigious, was discussed?

2 A I am not sure it was.

3 Q Remember, deli owners don't belong in the regis ter?

4 A I don't know if we discussed it was prestigious.

5 Q Is that what you said, I am not going to find my name

6 here with a deli owner?

7 A I didn't phrase it that way.

8 Q Wasn't that conversation in this tape recording?

9 A Deli owner and prestige are two different words, sir.

10 Q I know that, you can't shine a light on it. You have

11 to be a little clever about it? You can't say to Annette

12 during the course of the tape recorded conversation,

13 listen, I am recording the conversation, I would like to

14 talk about how prestigious the list is, you did it in a

15 more subtle way?

16 A Not so, but one can think that.

17 Q When you said, I will not find my name among a bunch

18 of deli owners, what did you imply?

19 A Other causes of prestige, useless reference value,

20 for example.

21 Q I will let you explain useless reference value when

22 Mr. White asks you questions.

23 You discussed split billing with Annette?
24 A Yes, sir. Is that on my list?
25 Q I am reading the list to you, I can assure you.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5149
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 We talked about networking, that's in the

2 conversation?

3 A Yes.

4 Q We talked about seminars, and that's in here?

5 A Yes, sir.

6 Q And what we have here is Annette saying that five

7 percent of the people had an -- that apply become members?

8 A Yes, sir.

9 Q And we have Annette saying that there were seminars

10 held in Vietnam, Hong Kong and Hilton Head, and you should

11 read the magazine for the information on those seminars?

12 A Future seminars she said.

13 Q I don't think future. She said read the magazines

14 for the information on the seminars.

1 5 In any event, the transcript is what it is, but

16 there was that conversation as well; is that right?

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q And for those otherwise, all the information she gave

19 you was pretty accurate on the money; am I right?

20 A No.

21 Q You don't think so.

22 In any event --

23 A Not at all, sir.
24 Q In any event, because of the five percent, and
25 because telling you about seminars that appear in the

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5150
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 magazine, you are sitting here now today and you are

2 convinced that Annette Haley should be tried and convicted

3 of the crimes that you committed; is that correct?

4 MR. WHITE: Objection.

5 THE COURT: Can I hear that again, Mr. Reporter,

6 please.

7 (Whereupon, the court reporter reads the

8 requested material.)

9 THE COURT: Objection sustained.

10 MR. GEDULDIG: Judge, I have no other questions.

11 THE COURT: Mr. Neville, you may proceed.

12 MR. NEVILLE: Thank you, your Honor.

13

14 CROSS-EXAMINATION

15 BY MR. NEVILLE:

16 Q Hello. My name is Jim Neville, I represent Scott

17 Michavelson.

18 A Yes, sir.

19 Q You know Scott?

20 A Not personally, no.

21 Q You spoke to him on the phone?

22 A Yes, sir.

23 Q I wanted to ask you a few questions about the
24 catalogue from your company that you ran?
25 A Yes, sir.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5151
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 Q I am referring to Defendant's Exhibit AO.

2 Is it really true you sold Lear Jets?

3 A If you bring me a copy of the catalogue, I will be

4 happy to respond to your question, sir.

5 (Handed to the witness.)

6 A Thank you.

7 Would you repeat the question, please, thank you.

8 Q Is it really true that you sold Lear Jets?

9 A I can't answer that with a yes or no, sir.

10 Q Is a Lear Jet one of the items in that catalogue?

11 A Yes, sir.

12 Q Is a Lear Jet for sale, one of the items in that

13 catalogue?

14 A Yes.

15 Q Is a Lear Jet for sale for some seven million plus

16 dollars in that catalogue for sale?

17 A Yes.

18 Q How many of those did you sell?

19 A We sold none of them, sir.

20 Q Did you have a stock from the Lear Jets?

21 A I had a conversation with Lear Jet and gained their

22 permission to have it for sale in the catalogue, sir.

23 Q Did you have a conversation with Lear Jet lately?
24 A No, sir.
25 Q Who is Edward Diamond in your business?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5152
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 A A name made up for the purpose of the catalogue, sir.

2 Q In the catalogue, I am looking, and I will show it to

3 you, if you can't remember, but did you make this

4 catalogue up? Did you have a hand in putting it together,

5 producing it, that kind of a thing?

6 A Yes, sir.

7 Q And there is a letter from the president, and it is

8 signed, Ed?

9 A Yes.

10 Q And that's Edward Diamond, the president?

11 A Yes, sir.

12 Q And there is a picture of a guy in the upper

13 right-hand corner, is that Ed?

14 A Ed Joseph, sir. If you show me a copy and bring it

15 up I will tell you.

16 (Handed to the witness.)

17 A Yes, sir. It is Ed Joseph and asked to be called Ed

18 Diamond in the catalogue.

19 Q Where is Ed Joseph now? Do you know?

20 A He passed away, sir.

21 Q Sorry to hear that.

22 S ome of my colleagues were naive, but I heard you

23 were selling trips to the moon. Is that true?
24 A In a whimsical sense.
25 Q In a whimsical sense?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5153
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 A Yes.

2 Q How much did it cost for that whimsical trip to the

3 moon?

4 A You have to give me the catalogue and I will see.

5 What page is it on?

6 Q I don't know. I was told it was in there. I just

7 want to check with you?

8 A I don't readily see it, but it was done in a

9 whimsical sense.

10 Q What do you mean?

11 A In the same fashion that Neiman Marcus just sold two

12 twin elephants on the cover of the catalogue. There was

13 no intention to sell it. It was just created for an

14 ambiance for the catalogue.

15 Q I guess Senator Glen doesn't need your catalogue. He

16 is going into space without you; is that correct?

17 A I assume that's correct, sir.

18 Q To get this straight, and you have to take it slowly

19 with me, because I have trouble keeping up with you.

20 You were arrested when?

21 A In May of 1992.

22 Q The first time you got arrested you closed down the

23 business on Cutter Mill Road but then went to North Shore
24 Towers and get going with the business?
25 A Inaccurate, sir.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5154
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 Q I am sorry, that's after the search warrant was

2 executed?

3 A You have to rephrase the question, please.

4 Q When the Cutter Mill Road business was searched by

5 the government, you didn't get arrested then?

6 A No, sir.

7 Q You then began to run your business from North Shore

8 Towers after that, right?

9 A No, sir.

10 Q Did you ever run your business out of North Shore

11 Towers?

12 A Yes.

13 Q Was that after you were in Cutter Mill Road?

14 A They weren't contiguous, sir.

15 Q How come I can't get a straight answer out of you?

16 MR. WHITE: Objection.

17 THE COURT: Sustained.

18 Q You were arrested in May of 1992?

19 A Yes, sir.

20 Q And you started to cooperate with the government

21 when, about a month after that, or so?

22 A The initial discussions were in July of 1992. The

23 agreement was entered into in September of 1992.
24 Q All right.
25 The time frame when you were making the telephone

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5155
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 calls here when you spoke to a bunch of different people,

2 among them Scott Michavelson, was in 1994, right?

3 A By making the telephone calls here? I am sorry.

4 Q In this case. You were here on this case. I am

5 sorry, if I am not as exact as you.

6 This case, Scott Michavelson, my client, phone

7 calls, does that all -- come to you?

8 A I understand the phrases, sir.

9 Q So, the phone calls you made that had to do with this

10 case, were in 1994, right?

11 A And 1995, yes, sir.

12 Q All right.

13 When was it again that you heard from your lawyer

14 about the Marquis Who's Who lawsuit against Mr. Gordon's

15 business?

16 A I believe it was 1994.

17 Q When in 1994?

18 A I don't have a clear recollection, sir.

19 Q Come on, spring, fall, winter?

20 A I believe it was the spring if you like me to guess,

21 sir.

22 Q So, you heard in the Spring of 1994 about the Marquis

23 Who's Who lawsuit against Mr. Gordon, right?
24 A That's correct, sir, if my g uess is correct, yes.
25 Q And you then, after hearing from your lawyer about

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5156
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 the lawsuit, you then told Inspector Biegelman about it;

2 is that right?

3 A That is correct.

4 Q And Inspector Biegelman is not in the courtroom; is

5 that right?

6 A That is correct, sir.

7 Q You still keep in touch with him?

8 A I spoke to him briefly, sir. I ran into him, but I

9 didn't keep in touch with him.

10 Q Are you working on any cases presently?

11 A No, sir.

12 Q So, you told Inspector Biegelman about this lawsuit.

13 When was that?

14 A When did I tell him about it?

15 Q Yes?

16 A I previously told you I guessed it was in the Spring

17 of 1994.

18 Q I asked you when your lawyer told you about it?

19 A It would have been i mmediately thereafter.

20 Q How immediately?

21 A It would have been within a day, sir.

22 Q You picked up the phone and called Inspector

23 Biegelman?
24 A I believe I sent a memo. I don't have a definite
25 recollection.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5157
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 Q Did you do any testifying at the Marquis Who's Who

2 trademark infringement suit?

3 A I was at the Court. I don't have a clear

4 recollection as to whether or not I did.

5 Q Were you subpoenaed to testify?

6 A I don't have a recollection as to that. I was

7 certainly in court and saw the proceedings.

8 Q You don't remember if you testified, but you were at

9 the court?

10 A Yes, sir.

11 Q You are sure of that?

12 A I am sure of that.

13 Q Why would you have been there if you didn't testify?

14 A I think the matter might have been heard on the

15 motion of papers and not witnesses. I could have been

16 incorrect about that.

17 Q Why would you be there? What would you have to do

18 with that unless you were called as a witness?

19 A I maintained an interest in the outcome of the

20 matter, certainly. Wouldn't that be logical?

21 Q Sure would. An intense interest, no?

22 A Yes, it was important.

23 Q Now, your lawyer told you about the lawsuit or the
24 results of the lawsuit between Marquis and Mr. Gordon's
25 business?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5158
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 A I believe there were several conversations about it.

2 It goes back many years ago. I am not quite sure.

3 Q Your lawyer tells you about it, and within a day you

4 call Marty Biegelman; is that right?

5 A No, sir.

6 Q I thought that's what you said?

7 A No, sir. Not what I said.

8 Q All right. Tell me what you said?

9 A I sent him a memo.

10 Q Within a day?

11 A Yes.

12 Q And you communicated with Marty Biegelman within a

13 day?

14 A Yes, sir.

15 Q You are absolutely right. I have to be more

16 precise.

17 Now, you don't remember if your lawyer told you

18 about the results of the case or just the fact that it was

19 pending; is that your testimony?

20 A My best recollection is there were two separate

21 matters, hearing about the lawsuit and the outcome was

22 separately attached. I am not quite sure then.

23 MR. NEVILLE: Do we have this memo?
24 Q When you sent this memo to Marty Biegelman, what did
25 you say? What was your interest in the case?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5159
Watstein-c ross/Neville


1 A I will have to see the memo to have my memory

2 refreshed.

3 Q We can come back to that.

4 A Certainly.

5 Q After you sent the memo to Marty Biegelman, did he

6 contact you or get back to you?

7 A I believe he contacted my attorney and not me. I am

8 not quite sure.

9 Q Marty Biegelman heard about the lawsuit from you,

10 didn't know anything about it? Do you know?

11 A That is my guess on it, that might be. I am not

12 quite sure.

13 Q I will hand you what is marked as 3500-22-G, and ask

14 you if you recognize it.

15 (Handed to the witness.)

16 Q I know it is not the memo we have been referring to,

17 but is it a memo you sent to Marty Biegelman.

18 How many memos did you send to Marty Biegelman?

19 A About three over the years.

20 Q How many times did you speak to him over the phone?

21 A Ten or 15 over the years.

22 Q Ten or 15 times over a few years?

23 A Over the phone, yes, sir.
24 Q Did you ever have any conversations with any of the
25 Marquis Who's Who attorneys, a Mr. Bailey, for example?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5160
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 A Yes, sir.

2 Q How about Mr. Douglas?

3 A It wasn't a yes to Mr. Bailey. It was just a yes in

4 general.

5 Q All right.

6 Did you speak to Mr. Bailey?

7 A I don't have a recollection of that name, sir.

8 Q How about Mr. Skalka?

9 A The name doesn't ring a bell to me, sir.

10 Q But you did speak to some of their lawyers?

11 A In reference to litigation we had with Marquis, yes,

12 sir.

13 Q Did you ever have any discussions with those lawyers

14 after you found out about the trademark infringement

15 lawsuit brought by Marqu is against Mr. Gordon?

16 A No, sir.

17 Q When you were facing Judge Mishler for sentencing you

18 didn't want to go to jail?

19 A That's true.

20 Q You weren't sure you would go to jail or not; is that

21 correct?

22 A Yes, sir, that's correct.

23 Q Correct me if I am mistaken, but you sent a letter or
24 a fax to Judge Mishler, pleading for leniency, didn't you?
25 A I think that's an accurate characterization, sir.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5161
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 Q A normal thing for someone in your position to do,

2 nothing wrong with that?

3 A I don't know if it is normal or not. It is an

4 accurate characterization of the memo.

5 Q I would have done that certainly, too.

6 You didn't want to go to jail for many reasons.

7 A Yes, sir.

8 Q And one of the reasons it is not nice to have someone

9 lock you into a room at night?

10 A Correct.

11 Q Your personal freedom is cut back?

12 A Correct, sir.

13 Q I bet one of the most or more important things that

14 weighed on your mind is what you going to jail would do to

15 your family?

16 A An accurate statement, yes.

17 Q Your children?

18 A Yes, sir.

19 Q Your sons?

20 A Yes.

21 Q And, in fact, you made it clear to Judge Mishler, one

22 of your sons specifically you were quite worried about?

23 A That's correct, sir.
24 Q Do you know anything about Scott Michavelson and his
25 kids?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5162
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 A No, I have no knowledge of Scott Michavelson at all.

2 Q When you were speaking to Scott Michavelson over the

3 telephone did you have any idea what he was all a bout or

4 who he was?

5 MR. WHITE: Objection.

6 THE COURT: Well, you missed the last question.

7 That I would have sustained.

8 MR. WHITE: Mr. Neville was too quick for me,

9 sorry.

10 THE COURT: This one I will let go, overruled.

11 A Repeat it, please.

12 Q When you called in on this case, and spoke to Scott

13 Michavelson on the phone, did you have any idea of who he

14 was, or what he was about?

15 A Other than as he discussed with me, no, sir.

16 Q You spoke about your present employment. You do some

17 consulting for three different outfits?

18 A Yes.

19 Q Just Great Coffee?

20 A Yes, sir.

21 Q Larry Tucker?

22 A Yes, sir.

23 Q And Core State Bank; is that correct?
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q Where is Just Great Coffee based?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5163
Wa tstein-cross/Neville


1 A New Jersey, sir.

2 Q Who owns the company?

3 A Bruce Seitz, S E I T Z.

4 Q Is he an acquaintance of yours other than just in

5 business relations?

6 A He was initially, but has become an acquaintance of

7 mine, he wasn't initially.

8 Q He is not a family member?

9 A No, sir.

10 Q Anyone in your family work for that outfit?

11 A No, sir.

12 Q You told Mister -- what was his name, Seitz?

13 A Yes, sir.

14 Q You told him you are a convicted felon?

15 A That is correct, sir.

16 Q How about Larry Tucker, where is that located?

17 A Located in Saddle River, New Jersey, sir.

18 Q Who owns Larry Tucker?

19 A Larry Tucker.

20 Q You told Larry Tucker about the fact you are a

21 convicted felon?

22 A Yes, sir.

23 Q Nothing wrong with someone convicted of a felony
24 getting thei r life back together, but certainly the
25 employers should know the facts when they hire somebody,

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5164
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 right?

2 A As to an employer, yes, sir.

3 Q I can understand why you may want to hide that from

4 someone, but from an employer's perspective, you may

5 understand they may want to know that kind of a thing,

6 right?

7 A From an employer's standpoint, yes, sir.

8 Q Especially an employer like a bank; is that right?

9 A No, sir, the bank is not my employer, sir.

10 Q Does the bank pay you any money?

11 A It pays my company a consulting fee, sir.

12 Q In other words, the advice you give to Core State

13 Bank is not coming out of goodness of your heart?

14 A No.

15 Q And they don't expect it to come out of the goodness

16 of your heart, they exp ect you -- to pay you for it?

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q Core State Bank is in Philadelphia?

19 A Yes.

20 Q A big outfit?

21 A Yes, just acquired by a major bank, First Union Bank.

22 Q I will come back to the bank, but before I do that, I

23 will ask if you remember any of the conversations you had
24 with any of the other sales people at Who's Who Worldwide
25 or Sterling.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5165
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 Do you remember a person by the name of Ed

2 Shaffer, S H A F F E R?

3 A I believe so, yes, sir.

4 Q Do you see him here in the courtroom?

5 A No.

6 Q How about --

7 A I would not know him if he were here, sir.

8 Q How about Marilyn Pierce? Remember speaking with

9 her?

10 A That name is familiar, sir.

11 Q Do you see her?

12 A I wouldn't kn ow her if I saw her.

13 Q How about Robert lamb?

14 A It doesn't ring a bell, but it is possible.

15 Q How about Bob, does that ring a bell?

16 A Possibly, but it doesn't ring a bell.

17 Q Michavel Powers?

18 A Yes, sir.

19 Q Do you see him in the courtroom?

20 A I don't know Mr. Powers, sir.

21 Q How about Michavel Esposito?

22 A That one doesn't ring a bell, sir.

23 Q Tom Randall?
24 A I believe so, sir.
25 Q Do you see him in the courtroom?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5166
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 A I don't know Mr. Randall, sir.

2 Q How about Carl Roper?

3 A That one doesn't ring a bell, sir.

4 Q How about Jill Barnes?

5 A Yes, sir, that name rings a bell.

6 Q Is she in the courtroom?

7 A I don't know her, sir.

8 Q Joe Parks?

9 A I am not sure, sir.

10 Q David Vine?

11 A I am not sure, sir.

12 Q As in a snake in the vine.

13 A I understand the spelling. I am not familiar with

14 the name. I am sure it is possible.

15 Q How about Madeline Bailey?

16 A That sounds familiar.

17 Q Do you see her here?

18 A I don't know Ms. Bailey, sir.

19 Q Tina Walsh?

20 A That sounds familiar.

21 Q Is she in the room?

22 A I wouldn't know Ms. Walsh, sir.

23 Q How about Larry Dodge, as in dodging going to jail?
24 MR. WHITE: Objection.
25 THE COURT: Sustained.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5167
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 A It doesn't ring a bell, sir.

2 THE COURT: You don't have to answer that. It is

3 stricken.

4 A Sorry.

5 Q Kevin McCarthy?

6 A It doesn't ring a bell, sir.

7 Q The names you used when you called up on these

8 assignments -- okay if I call them assignments from

9 Inspector Biegelman?

10 A Acceptable, sir.

11 Q Where did you get those names? Where did they come

12 from?

13 A I made them up, sir.

14 Q Where did the name Edward X. Grimaldi,

15 G R I M A D L I, come from?

16 A I used the name from my imagination, sir.

17 Q Chuck Sampson, we spoke about that yesterday.

18 A Yes, sir, the answer to all these names would be the

19 same.

20 Q Like Sampson and Dalila?

21 A I am not sure where it came from, sir.

22 Q Jacob Cawfield?

23 A The same thing.
24 Q Any relation to Holden?
25 MR. NEVILLE: C A W F I E L D, I believe. I have

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5168
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 read some books.

2 Q Howard Lauter, L A U T E R?

3 A I merely created that n ame as I previously testified.

4 Q Let's get back to Core State Bank.

5 A Yes, sir.

6 Q When you say that the Core State Bank pays your

7 company a consulting fee, am I correct that that means

8 that some of the money that Core State Bank has ends up in

9 your pockets?

10 A No, sir, it would not be an accurate statement.

11 Q Okay.

12 Does it mean some money from Core State Bank ends

13 up in a bank account, what was it, the beneficial interest

14 in?

15 A I can't answer with a yes or no, sir.

16 Q How much money did Core State bank pay, or maybe I

17 should say remit to your company for consulting fees in

18 the last year?

19 A Approximately $30,000.

20 Q What kind of consulting do you do for Core State

21 Bank?

22 A Marketing consulting.

23 Q Didn't I hear you say something about assets?
24 A They are in the asset base le nding business, sir.
25 Q Asset base lending business, what is that?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5169
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 A Providing a loan secured by accounts receivable and

2 inventory of a company.

3 Q Wow. I have no idea what you just said, but I

4 believe you.

5 That has to do with some of the money that the

6 bank has that gets lent out to people who are going to

7 borrow it; right?

8 A Yes, sir.

9 Q Like, if I will buy a house, the bank lends me money

10 so I can buy the house, right?

11 A If you want to rephrase that question, I don't

12 understand what you are saying, sir.

13 Q Okay.

14 Can you give us an example of one of the

15 assignments you had with Core State Bank? What was one of

16 the assignments you worked on?

17 A To train their salespeople, sir.

18 Q Fo r telemarketing stuff?

19 A No, for calling officer programs, C A L L I N G,

20 calling officer programs.

21 Q What is that?

22 A An officer who makes visits to potential borrowers.

23 Q What do you teach those people at the bank?
24 MR. WHITE: Objection.
25 THE COURT: Sustained.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5170
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 Q Do you teach them anything about puffing the drop?

2 MR. WHITE: Objection.

3 THE COURT: Sustained.

4 Q That book you wrote about the Power and Pleasure of

5 Sex.

6 A Yes.

7 Q It sounds like a must read?

8 MR. WHITE: Objection.

9 THE COURT: Is that a question or a statement,

10 Mr. Neville?

11 MR. NEVILLE: I don't know what it was, your

12 Honor. I will withdraw it.

13 THE COURT: The jury has been instructed a number

14 of times that these statements are not evidence in the

15 case. You are totally to disregard them, whether humorous

16 or not. The fact that they may be humorous doesn't give

17 it any evidentiary standing whatsoever.

18 Q You do some consulting for Core State Bank?

19 A Yes.

20 Q And Core State has money?

21 A Yes.

22 Q Stock portfolios?

23 A I don't know if they do.
24 Q Mortgages, probably?
25 A I assume so. I am not involved in that aspect of

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5171
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 their business.

2 Q Now, marketing -- you are instructing people at the

3 bank to make sales, learning how to make sales?

4 A Yes, sir.

5 Q Do you know if Core State Bank has any pension funds

6 that are handled?

7 A I have no idea.

8 Q Individual retirement accounts?

9 A I assum e so, I am not sure.

10 Q Credit unions?

11 A Perhaps.

12 Q Education loans?

13 A I have no idea.

14 Q Business loans?

15 A I assume so. An asset base loan is a business loan.

16 Q Say it again, sir?

17 A An asset base loan is a business loan.

18 Q Asset, like A S S E T?

19 A Yes.

20 Q Like having assets, like having money?

21 A No. Like inventory and accounts receivable.

22 Q So, would you agree with me, that you, helping to

23 train some of these people at Core State Bank to make
24 sales in their assets based division is a most important
25 affair at the bank?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5172
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 A No, sir.

2 Q Is it an important affair at the bank?

3 A I am a minor consultant of that company, yes, sir.

4 Q And whether you are minor or major, the bank has an

5 assets based sales program because it considers it

6 important enough to spend time on it; is that right?

7 A Yes.

8 Q And whether your minor or major is an -- is as a

9 consultant, the assets based division of the bank involves

10 important affairs of the bank; is that right?

11 A Yes, sir.

12 Q Correct me if I am wrong, but the financial state of

13 the bank can be can be affected directly or indirectly in

14 how the assets of the bank are managed?

15 MR. WHITE: Objection.

16 THE COURT: Sustained.

17 Q You didn't tell anybody at Core State Bank you are a

18 convicted felon?

19 A Yes, sir, correct.

20 Q You did not tell anybody?

21 A Your statement is correct.

22 Q Can you say that, I did not tell them?

23 A I did not tell them, as previously testified, sir.
24 Q Now, who did you speak with at the bank to get the

25 consultant job?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5173
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 A Greg Pass.

2 MR. WHITE: Objection.

3 Q Mr. X, maybe Mr. Grimaldi?

4 MR. WHITE: Objection.

5 THE COURT: Sustained.

6 Q Do you think that Mr. X, knowing about your fraud

7 conviction, that that would have made him pause before

8 acting and hiring your company to do consulting work in

9 the assets based division of Core State Bank?

10 MR. WHITE: Objection.

11 THE COURT: Sustained.

12 MR. NEVILLE: Much to your dismay, your Honor, I

13 am not finished.

14 I will be now referring to

15 Government's Exhibit 1308-A.

16 Q Mr. Grimaldi -- I mean Watstein.

17 I am handing you what is marked as 1308-A.

18 The jurors all have it?

19 THE JURORS: Yes.

20 THE COURT: Please don't address the jurors,

21 Mr. Neville. At any time, don't do that.

22 MR. NEVILLE: I am sorry, your Honor. I

23 apologize.
24 Q Now, you see that exhibit?
25 A Yes, sir.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5174
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 Q And that was a conversation between you, a/k/a, Ed

2 Grimaldi, right, and Scott Michavelson?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q And that conversation took place on the 27th of

5 October of 1994?

6 A Yes, sir.

7 Q And so, you stated earlier, you testified earlier,

8 that you heard about the Reed Elsevir, Marquis Who's Who

9 trademark infringement lawsuit against Mr. Gordon's

10 company in the Spring of 1994?

11 A That was my guess, yes, sir.

12 Q So, this telephone conversation takes place after you

13 found out about that lawsuit; is that right?

14 A To the best of my knowledge, yes, sir.

1 5 Q Without looking at the transcript, Mr. Watstein, do

16 you have an independent recollection of the phone call,

17 where you pose as Edward Grimaldi, the owner of a beauty

18 salon?

19 A I made 61 calls, I can't do it without looking at the

20 transcript.

21 Q I will let you look at it. I am asking if you

22 remember this one?

23 A In a general sense, yes.
24 Q You remember the name Scott Michavelson?
25 A Yes, sir.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5175
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 Q Okay.

2 Now, look at the transcript, if you will, and

3 let's go through it.

4 A Certainly.

5 Q Now, you call yourself to Who's Who here; is that

6 right?

7 A Yes, sir.

8 Q When you called, you had not really received any card

9 in the mail from them; is that right?

10 A That is correct, sir.

11 Q And when you called, your name was Steve Watstein, it

12 wasn't Ed Grimaldi, right?

13 A Yes, sir.

14 Q And just about halfway down that first page you start

15 to speak with Scott Michavelson; is that right?

16 A Yes, sir.

17 Q And one of the first things you ask Scott Michavelson

18 toward the bottom of the first page is to see if your name

19 is in on the computer; is that right?

20 A What line are you in, sir?

21 Q Toward the bottom, the second to last attribution to

22 E.G.

23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q You asked Scott if you were on the computer, right?
25 A Yes, sir.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5176
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 Q You knew you wouldn't be on the computer, right?

2 A I would assume so.

3 Q Does that mean yes or does it mean no?

4 A It means I would assume so, sir.

5 Q Now, what you were doing there, weren't you, you were

6 trying to get Scott Michavelson to say, oh, yes, you are

7 right here on my computer, I have you right here? You

8 were trying to get Scott to say that?

9 A No, sir.

10 Q He didn't say that, did he?

11 A No, sir.

12 Q He didn't say that?

13 A Yes, sir, he didn't say that, sir.

14 Q You don't have to call me, sir.

15 A Okay.

16 Q At the bottom of the first page, Scott Michavelson

17 goes into quite an explanation as to why your name is not

18 on the computer; doesn't he?

19 A Yes, sir.

20 Q Scott says, yeah, because once you send back your

21 form, and if they don't conduct the interview to qualify

22 you, they wouldn't have your -- have you, excuse me, on

23 the database. Somehow, maybe they didn't receive your
24 card, or for some reason, I have no idea.
25 Is that what Scot t Michavelson said to you?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5177
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 A Yes, sir.

2 Q And Scott Michavelson assumed, it appears, that you

3 had sent in some card, didn't he?

4 A I can't assume that he assumed anything.

5 Q Could you make an inductive leap and say that based

6 on Scott's words, he was believing you sent in a card?

7 MR. WHITE: Objection.

8 THE COURT: Sustained.

9 Q The top of the next page, the first attribution to

10 Scott there, he says, I don't know if we lost the card or

11 I have no idea.

12 He doesn't know what happened to the card, does

13 he?

14 A It appears to be the case.

15 Q And Scott was accurately stating to you that your

16 name was not in the computer?

17 A That is correct. That phrase is accurate.

18 Q Let's go down to the next part where Scot t speaks,

19 where you explain you have to send back the form, where he

20 says, no, because you still have to send back the form.

21 There are a lot of people for, whatever reason, don't feel

22 they want to be in here, or they're retired.

23 Do you see that?
24 A Yes.
25 Q That's what Scott Michavelson told you, isn't it?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5178
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 A Yes, sir.

2 Q And Scott Michavelson then talks about 6,000 requests

3 each month, yes?

4 A Which line?

5 Q The next one down. Follow down. Believe me I will

6 do it in the simplest fashion.

7 A Okay.

8 Q 6,000 requests each month, and 1,000 are accepted; is

9 that right?

10 A That's what Scott says, yes.

11 Q Okay.

12 Now Scott then in his next statement after that

13 one says that just because your card is back doesn't mean

14 you are automatically in the database.

15 Do you see where Scott says that?

16 A Yes, sir.

17 Q And he is still explaining to you here, isn't he,

18 that you would have to send a card in, because although

19 someone sends a card in, it doesn't mean they are

20 automatically in the database? Is that what he says?

21 A Yes.

22 Q And what he is saying if someone sends a card back,

23 they have to get on the telephone to see if they qualify
24 to get into the registry; is that correct?
25 A Uh-huh.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5179
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 Q Does that mean yes?

2 A Yes.

3 Q And then Scott explains to you in the next

4 attribution to Scott, you still -- so, we go over the

5 information. We get your profile and then we go over the

6 membersh ip with you.

7 And you say right after that, Ed Grimaldi, but we

8 know it is Steve Watstein, don't we?

9 A Yes, sir.

10 Q Okay, well, well, I got some questions. Why, why

11 don't you ask me whatever you like first, and then, then

12 I, I'll answer a few questions. Fire away.

13 Did Marty Biegelman tell you to say that?

14 A No.

15 Q Did you have a plan at this time when you called up

16 and spoke to Scott Michavelson?

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q Did you have a written list of statements that you

19 were going to make and questions you were going to ask

20 Scott?

21 A No.

22 Q Just off the top of your head?

23 A Yes.
24 Q Winging it?
25 A I can't answer that question with a yes or no, sir.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5180
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 Q You didn't have anything writt en down or prepared?

2 A That is correct.

3 Q Just doing it on the fly?

4 A Can I answer -- I can't answer with a yes or no,

5 sir.

6 Q Toward the bottom of the paper, after you say you

7 have some questions, and then you encourage Scott

8 Michavelson to fire away, Scott says, no, no, no. You

9 speak to me. You tell me what questions you have, in

10 words or substance, he says that, right?

11 A Uh-huh, yes.

12 Q Now, at the bottom, the last attribution to you at

13 the bottom of the page, you say, sure, sure. I'm a little

14 bit unconfident, unconfident, did you you say that word?

15 A Yes.

16 Q Unconfident, is that a word?

17 A A word I used in this mode, sir.

18 Q Because you were trying to come off as a dummy,

19 right?

20 A I can't respond yes or no to that question.

21 Q You know "unconfident" isn't an English word?

22 A Yes, correct, I know that.

23 Q You know it is not?
24 A Yes.
25 Q You were trying to come off as a dumb salon owner,

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5181
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 weren't you?

2 A No, sir.

3 Q You were in role, weren't you?

4 A That is correct, yes, sir.

5 Q So, you were unconfident, because, you know, umm, one

6 thing back and followed up, and nothing happened, but,

7 umm, in terms of, umm, of your group, Scott. Can you help

8 me understand, what, what do you do exactly? Are you a

9 membership group or --

10 Now, Scott tells it how it is, doesn't he? He

11 explains what that company is all about, doesn't he?

12 A You have to read the sentence to see if he tells it

13 like it is, sir.

14 Q He tells about the number of members?

15 A Yes, he makes that statement.

16 Q He talks about how it is a Worldwide Registry, but at

17 that time it was mostly domestic. He says that, sir?

18 A You are skipping over what it says, sir.

19 Q Though it is still mostly domestic, am I reading it

20 right?

21 A Yes.

22 Q He is not trying to make you think that only the Shah

23 of Iran, or anybody else from South America are in this
24 registry, he makes you think it is mostly a domestic
25 publication?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5182
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 A Yes, sir.

2 Q You were in role when made this call?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q And Scott Michavelson was doing his job, wasn't he?

5 A It is an accurate statement.

6 Q At the bottom of the page, Scott talks about how each

7 member has a right to nominate up to two, three people in

8 the registry each year, do you know that?

9 A Have we skipped a prior phrase, sir?

10 Q I am asking you the questions, okay?

11 A I thought you were continuing. I am sorry.

12 Q It is all right.

13 A Thank you.

14 Q Let's go to the next page.

15 The first attribution to Scott on page 3, I

16 believe it is. He says, oh, I have -- at my level, I

17 wouldn't know specifically, because we also get people

18 from various trade magazines. If there is a nice article

19 about yourself we might go after you as well. But you

20 would have to be submitted or referred.

21 Do you see where Scott Michavelson says that?

22 A Yes.

23 Q Do you see where Scott says, oh, I have at my level,
24 I wouldn't know specifically?
25 A I see that portion.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5183
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 Q Am I reading it correctly?

2 A Certainly are.

3 Q If I am reading it correctly, it means that what

4 Scott said?

5 A Yes, sir.

6 Q And that's what Scott said to you?

7 A That's correct.

8 Q You say in the next line, in other words, I am not on

9 some kind of mailing list somewhere or something?

10 Scott, says, umm, not that I know of, no.

11 Because I -- we have to reject more people than we

12 actually accept.

13 That's what Scott said to you?

14 A That's right.

15 Q The mailing list question -- withdrawn.

16 Did you agree when you were testifying at this

17 trial that you understand now, or you are under the

18 impression now that Marquis Who's Who uses mailing lists?

19 A Yes.

20 Q I just wanted to make sure that I heard that.

21 Then as Mr. Geduldig pointed out to you, your

22 next attribution is you say I gotcha, I gotcha; is that

23 what you said?

2 4 A Only said once.
25 Q I see it twice, I got you, I got you.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5184
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 A Got, not gotcha.

2 Q I got you, I got you?

3 A That's right.

4 Q Is that in there twice?

5 A Yes, sir, as phrased that way, yes, sir.

6 Q Scott goes on to talk about how you could

7 cross-reference the members, you could cross-reference via

8 the registry, or Scott says in the middle of the page, we

9 have it on a CD-ROM format for an IBM.

10 You say, I see.

11 Do you see where it says that?

12 A Yes.

13 Q And Scott goes to the rest of the presentation, we

14 provide services for our members. We list you in the

15 registry for the duration of your membership.

16 That means, if you are a three year member, you

17 are in there for three years, right? Isn't that what a

18 reasonable person would deduce from that statement by

19 Scott Michavelson?

20 A Yes, sir.

21 Q If you are a lifetime member you would be in there

22 for the rest of your life?

23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q And if it is in your case, you will live to be a
25 hundred?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5185
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 A I will try, sir.

2 Q Scott says, we provide you with a beautiful custom

3 engraved wall plaque, we send you the artwork, we send you

4 artwork of our seal, if you want to place it on your

5 business cards, uh-huh.

6 Do you see that?

7 A Yes.

8 Q And so, he is telling -- he is giving the

9 presentation, right?

10 A Yes.

11 THE COURT: Is this a good time to take a break,

12 Mr. Neville?

13 MR. NEVILLE: Sure.

14 THE COURT: Members of the jury, we will take a

15 15 minute recess. Please do not discuss the case. Keep

16 an open mind. Please recess yourselves.

17 (Whereupon, at this time the jury leaves the

18 courtroom.)

19 THE COURT: You can step down, Mr. Watstein.

20 Where are the students? Come on up.

21

22 (Whereupon, a recess is taken.)

23
24
25

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5186
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 THE CLERK: Jury entering.

2 THE COURT: Please be seated.

3 You may proceed, Mr. Neville.

4 MR. NEVILLE: Thank you.

5 Q Before we broke for the break, we were I believe, on

6 page four of the transcript, Mr. Watstein.

7 I was pointing out the attribution to Scott, a

8 little more than half way down the paper, where he is

9 explaining the different benefits; do you see that?

10 A Yes, sir.

1 1 Q And then Scott says in the next attribution to him,

12 then you can nominate two people a year into the

13 registry. It's all public relations, marketing,

14 cross-referencing the net members. It's independent

15 recognition.

16 Do you see that?

17 A Yes.

18 Q And then Scott says, after you say, I see, I see,

19 Scott says, and, we do have the best target audience,

20 probably in the entire world. We have Fortune Ten

21 executives in here, and we also have small business

22 consultants.

23 Do you see that?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And then Scott says, it's all according to their

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5187
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 distribution, the services, and of course, you know, their

2 years of experience in their industry.

3 And then you say, I see, so you would say it's

4 somewhat p restigious?

5 Scott says, I had -- I would say it's very

6 prestigious, our quarterly magazine and newsletter that we

7 put out, it's called Tribute. Keeps you up-to-date, a lot

8 of our new benefits, but we also profile a lot of our top

9 executives, and that you might be familiar with.

10 Do you see that?

11 A Yes.

12 Q Salesmanship?

13 A I can't answer yes or no.

14 Q There is an interruption in the tape where someone

15 cuts into the conversation and says Larry Gatlin is

16 holding for you.

17 A Yes.

18 Q Do you see that?

19 A Yes.

20 Q Where were you when you made the phone call?

21 A 1000 West McNab Road, Pompano Beach, Florida.

22 Q In an office?

23 A Yes.
24 Q In your office?
25 A In a conference room.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5188
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 Q And then Scott goes on to say, so, we usually do up

2 to about ten people that we profile in our magazine. So,

3 yes, you are in some very good company. People that you

4 would read about and see in the newspapers. But, there is

5 also people that you wouldn't know. But it's a mixed

6 bag. But they are all members.

7 You see that?

8 A Yes.

9 Q Pretty straight statement?

10 A Yes.

11 Q Is it a question? Is it a pretty straight statement?

12 A I can't answer that with a yes or no. Sorry, sir.

13 Q Now, the conversation begins to get interesting at

14 this point, because you begin to talk about the beauty

15 salon. You see that?

16 A Yes.

17 Q And do you see where you drop that in there where you

18 say a little bit more down the page, or a third down the

19 page, where someone says, someone is calling me here in

20 the beauty parlor, could you hold just one second? Do you

21 see that?

22 A Yes.

23 Q And you weren't in the beauty parlor?
24 A No.
25 Q The reason you are saying that is because you were

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5189
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 going to talk about how you are the owner of Ed's Beauty

2 Salon, and using words like unconfident, and things like

3 that, to try to trick Scott Michavelson into selling you a

4 membership that you really didn't deserve, right?

5 A No, sir.

6 Q Now, further down the page, about two-thirds of the

7 way down, in answering your question, where you say one

8 out of six people are accepted, and Scott says, no, we

9 have 6,000 requests each month for inclusion, and we only

10 accept about 1,000 new members, and you affirm that that

11 is one out of six, and Scott says, yes; do you see that?

12 A Yes.

13 Q Now you start talking money, cost, toward the bottom

14 of the page?

15 A Yes.

16 Q Okay, Scott, what is all this going to cost?

17 And Scott says, okay, there are two memberships,

18 we have a lifetime membership and five year membership,

19 the five year membership, there is a one time charge of

20 $350. It includes your privileges, your services and your

21 custom wall plaque.

22 Then Scott says, doesn't he, your only options

23 are the registry, which is released every January, and our
24 CD-ROM disks, which is available now; do you see where
25 Scott says that?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5190
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 A Yes.

2 Q That's an option that you have; is that right?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q Yes, that means you pay extra for options?

5 A Yes.

6 Q When you buy a car and try to get an FM radio,

7 instead of AM, that's an option, right?

8 A Yes.

9 Q And you pay more money for it, don't you?

10 A Yes.

11 Q Then Scott talks at the bottom of the page, the

12 lifetime membership?

13 A Yes.

14 Q Talks about the one time charge of $750, right?

15 A Yes.

16 Q Talks about the CD-ROM and the wall plaques, yes?

17 A Yes.

18 Q Then you ask at the top of that next paper, and I

19 believe it is page 6, and how much was the -- I lost the

20 price on the first one, I am sorry.

21 Scott, the five year -- Scott says, the five year

22 is $350.

23 Then Scott says, and the lifetime is 750.
24 Do you see that?
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5191
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 Q Now, Scott after that says to you, does he not, ab out

2 between a quarter and a third of the way down the page,

3 the third attribution to Scott on this page, and after

4 your first year, your annual dues are only $49 per year.

5 That will maintain your benefits, it will include our

6 quarterly magazine, the Tribute, which I mentioned

7 before. If you have use for the CD-ROM, you feel that you

8 can benefit -- I assume he meant from it -- and you have

9 the hardware, then we suggest the lifetime duration. If

10 you really don't, then I would start with the five year

11 membership.

12 He is trying to sell you the most expensive

13 thing, isn't he? Isn't he?

14 A He is attempting to sell me something, yes, sir.

15 Q He is not trying to sell you the most expensive

16 thing, is he, Mr. Grimaldi -- Mr. Watstein?

17 A Would you repeat the question.

18 Q Scott Michavelson is giving you the option to buy

19 something cheaper, isn't he?

20 A That is correct.

21 Q Okay.

22 And then Scott says, doesn't he, almost halfway

23 down the page, cause it's less expensive, and you can
24 always upgrade.
25 Do you see that?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5192
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 A Yes, sir.

2 Q After that Scott says, if you want, in two years to

3 go to a lifetime membership, we would credit what you

4 paid. We would charge the difference.

5 It seems pretty fair, doesn't it?

6 A I can't comment with a yes or no, sir.

7 Q Does it seem unfair to you?

8 A I can't comment with a yes or no.

9 Q Now, we get to the meat of the conversation where you

10 are starting to ask Scott about whether or not you

11 qualify, right? Do you see that?

12 A Yes, sir.

13 Q And this is especially important because n ot every

14 Joe should be able to get into this registry, right?

15 A I think it is an accurate statement.

16 Q Like somebody from Ed's Beauty Salon, right?

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q Somebody uses the word "unconfident", right?

19 A Yes, sir.

20 Q Okay.

21 You say, I see, Scott, now, umm, let me see

22 whether I'm going to qualify or not. Why don't, ask me a

23 couple of questions.
24 Scott says, okay.
25 And then Scott asks your name, and you say

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5193
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 Edward, middle initial X, and the name of your company.

2 Do you see that toward the bottom of the page?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q And then you say, Ed's Salon?

5 A Yes.

6 Q Do you see that?

7 A Yes.

8 Q And the test, Larry Gatlin comes to the conversation

9 again?

1 0 A Yes.

11 Q Do you see that?

12 A Yes.

13 Q Ed's, title?

14 My title is owner.

15 Telephone numbers.

16 Then a third way down the page, Scott says, okay,

17 what does the company do, Mr. Grimaldi? Do you see that?

18 A Yes.

19 Q And do you see where Scott asks you that?

20 A Yes.

21 Q And you say, we are a beauty parlor; do you see that?

22 A Yes.

23 Q And then, let's look closely at what Scott says
24 next.
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5194
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 Q Scott says, okay, beauty parlor, they really -- I

2 don't think they would put that into the registry.

3 The only thing they would offer, they would give

4 you like a two year duration there, because a beauty

5 parlor can't really benefit from the networking in the

6 registry.

7 And then what do you say after that after that,

8 Ed -- Steve?

9 Sure we could. That's one of those gotchas,

10 because you are not really Ed from the beauty salon, you

11 are Steven Watstein trying to get Scott Michavelson to go

12 to jail, right?

13 MR. WHITE: Objection.

14 THE COURT: Sustained.

15 Q And you say, Mr. Watstein, the middle of the page,

16 sure we could. Did you say that?

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q And you are trying to give the impression that you

19 are the owner of a modest, humble, beauty salon that

20 shouldn't be in a registry like this, right?

21 A No, sir.

22 Q A guy who uses words like "unconfident," right?

23 A No, sir.
24 Q You don't have to call me, sir.
25 A I will try not to.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5195
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 Q You say, don't you.

2 Do you ever hear of a female executive?

3 Scott laughs. I am sorry?

4 You say, did you ever hear of a female

5 executive?

6 Then Scott says in his role as salesperson, oh,

7 no, and we have plenty of female executives, but what we

8 need is the people that are registering more or less, have

9 worldwide networking, or have a U.S. networking. You're

10 really a salon which is, I mean, I applaud you, I mean,

11 you're job is wonderful. But it's something that is

12 really not going to benefit from the entire registry as

13 far as members contacting you for products and things like

14 that in different areas.

15 Is that what Scott said to you?

16 A Yes, sir.

17 Q Then look at what Scott says after that. Why don't

18 you read what Scott says after that, Mr. Watstein.

19 A May I read the entire portion and not be stopped?

20 Q No.

21 A I see.

22 Q Read what I ask you to read, please?

23 A Certainly, I can understand.
24 Q What does Scott say?
25 A We, we wouldn't take your money for it.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5196
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 Q We wouldn't take your money for it.

2 Blew your doors right off, didn't he?

3 A No. Read the balance of it.

4 Q Okay, so does that mean they would reject us or --

5 no, they wouldn't reject it.

6 Does that -- did Scott Michavelson say ain't small

7 businesses? Did he say that?

8 A He may have. I don't recall.

9 Q You are still at it, not you?

10 A No, sir.

11 Q Scott says at the bottom of the page, I will read

12 it.

13 A Good.

14 Q They wouldn't reject it. What you have is an

15 option. They have like a two year duration, in which they

16 would list your industry . They would list your -- some of

17 your social information and your company, they would list

18 there. But it would only be for two years. They would

19 put in you a different section of the registry.

20 You teach people at Core State Bank to do

21 salesmanship on the phone, right?

22 A Right.

23 Q Salespeople try to make sales, right?
24 A Not at all times, sir.
25 Q Anything illegal about that, sir?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5197
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 A No, sir, not that I am aware of.

2 Q Would you agree with me that Scott did damn well with

3 you on the phone trying to nail him? He did pretty well,

4 didn't he?

5 MR. WHITE: Objection.

6 THE COURT: Sustained.

7 Q You expect a salesperson to turn down a sale?

8 A Yes, sir, if it is inappropriate.

9 Q You are going to tell me what is inappropriate?

10 MR. WHITE: Objection.

11 THE COURT: Sustained.

12 Please don't argue with the witness,

13 Mr. Neville.

14 MR. NEVILLE: Excuse me.

15 Q All kidding aside, sir, what Scott Michavelson did was

16 reject what you were trying to do?

17 A No, sir. He reduced the unit of sale. That's what

18 he did.

19 Q Scott then -- this is on the next page, second

20 attribution down, I believe it is page 8 -- first

21 attribution to Scott.

22 Scott says, you would still be a member --

23 A I don't follow you.
24 Q I am on what I believe is page 8. At the top, the
25 first attribution to Scott.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5198
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 A Okay.

2 Q Scott Michavelson, remember him?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q Scott says, you'll still be a member, but you'll be

5 what they call an affiliate member, you are an associate

6 member.

7 Do you see that?

8 A Yes, sir.

9 Q And then Scott says, after you say uh-huh, Scott's,

10 you would be in a different section of the registry. You

11 would have the same wall plaque. You would have the same

12 option -- sow see that word, "option"?

13 A Yes, sir.

14 Q What does it mean, pay more money for it?

15 A He would sell me more things; is that right.

16 Q And you would have the same option of receiving the

17 registry, it will just be in a different area.

18 Mr. Watstein, what did you expect Scott

19 Michavelson to do as a salesperson, say, you know, Ed, you

20 are a loser? You shouldn't be in our registry, and hang

21 up on you? Is that what he should have done, and then he

22 wouldn't go to jail if he did that?

23 A I can't respond yes or no, sir, unless you like an

24 open-ended answer.
25 Q The middle of that page Scott goes on to talk about

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5199
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 the plaque, what it would say. Do you see that?

2 A Uh-huh, yes.

3 Q And you say in the middle of that page, umm,

4 unintelligible, that's not bad, and that would be 350 for

5 that?

6 No, Scott says, right after that, no, that was

7 for your five year. The two year duration for the

8 affiliate would be $97 now, and then the option to receive

9 the registry -- and then the option to receive the

10 registry in December.

11 There is that darn word "option" again. Do you

12 see that?

13 A Yes.

14 Q You were trying to get Scott to say, yes, that's 350

15 bucks, weren't you?

16 A Absolutely not.

17 Q Absolutely not.

18 The bottom of that paper, Scott talks about some

19 of the members in the registry, right, in the

20 organization, after you ask him who is in the registry?

21 Do you see that, sir?

22 A Yes. You don't have to call me, sir.

23 Q Okay, I won't.
24 That was one of your little questions you asked
25 people, about who is in the registry, right?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5200
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 A I don't understand your question, sir.

2 Q Do you remember when Mr. Geduldig was asking you

3 questions, and he was going down a list of things that you

4 targeted, that you mentioned in these calls where you were

5 trying to entrap these people?

6 MR. WHITE: Objection.

7 I am sorry, I was drinking a glass of water.

8 THE COURT: Sustained.

9 Q Remember the list of topics that you were covering in

10 these calls?

11 A Y es.

12 Q That Mr. Geduldig was talking to you about?

13 A Yes.

14 Q Do you remember Mr. Geduldig?

15 A Yes.

16 Q Now, one of those items that you were -- one of the

17 items that you were going over in your different calls was

18 the kind of people in the registry, the kind of people who

19 had a membership; is that right?

20 A I don't believe it was exactly phrased as

21 Mr. Geduldig's list.

22 Q I could never phrase it as eloquently as he did. But

23 do you catch my drift? Do you follow me?
24 A I think so, in a sense, yes.
25 Q So, what you were trying to do when you were making

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5201
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 this call, is you were going down the list of topics that

2 you cover on these calls to see what the people would say,

3 right?

4 A As phrased that way it is an accurate statement, yes.

5 Q Does that mean yes?

6 A It means yes, as phrased that way.

7 Q Now, Scott says at the bottom of the page, it would

8 be kind of tacky to member people, but he mentioned

9 someone from Sumner Redstone, do you know who that is?

10 A I know the name.

11 Q Who is that?

12 A A chairman of a major company.

13 Q Scott mentions Sumner Redstone, and he mentions it

14 because it is in Tribute, right, because it is public

15 knowledge?

16 A That's what he says.

17 Q Well, do you remember the case we are here on?

18 A I am very familiar with the case we are here on.

19 Q Do you have any idea why this conversation is part of

20 the case?

21 A Rephrase the question, sir.

22 Q No.

23 Do you have any idea why this conversation is
24 part of the case?
25 A This conversation with Scott and myself.



HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5202
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 Q Or Ed, whoever it was.

2 A Or your conversation with me.

3 Q The phone conversation, the tape.

4 A Yes, I have an understanding in my judgment, yes.

5 Q And you were a confidential informant, right?

6 A That's corrrect.

7 Q And you were working for Marty Biegelman; is that

8 correct?

9 A That is correct.

10 Q And he had you on a leash, right?

11 A Incorrect.

12 MR. WHITE: Objection.

13 Q So to speak?

14 A No.

15 THE COURT: Sustained, sustained.

16 Q You were under his tutelage? How is that for a

17 word?

18 MR. WHITE: Objection.

19 THE COURT: Sustained.

20 Q And the words that are uttered in these conversations

21 are very important, aren't they?

22 A An accurate statement, sir.

23 Q Does th at mean yes?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And in fact, the way these questions are answered

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5203
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 could directly affect the outcome of this trial vis a vis

2 Scott Michavelson or anybody else in the room, right?

3 MR. WHITE: Objection.

4 THE COURT: Sustained.

5 Q Well, Mr. Watstein, you were asking these questions

6 for a reason, right?

7 A I can't answer with a yes or no.

8 Q Okay.

9 Now, let's look down a little further on the same

10 page, where Scott in his aggressive -- it is a quarter to

11 4:00. If you need to know the time, ask me?

12 A It is okay. Thank you.

13 Q Another instance where Scott was aggressively trying

14 to sell you more than you really wanted, and let's look at

15 it altogether.

16 Scott says in the middle of the page, with all

17 the other benefits, and then Scott says in his most

18 devious moment, I think as a salon, you really wouldn't

19 have use for it, because you really don't -- because you

20 don't really do any type of corporate networking. How

21 about that?

22 MR. WHITE: Objection.

23 THE COURT: Sustained.
24 Q Did you see that?
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5204
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 Q Mr. Watstein, did you see that?

2 A I answered, yes, sir.

3 Q And you heard Scott say that because you were the one

4 on the phone with him, right?

5 A Yes.

6 Q And so, you didn't get a gotcha on that one, did

7 you?

8 MR. WHITE: Objection.

9 THE COURT: Sustained.

10 Q And then Scott says -- withdrawn.

11 Then you say, so, from the benefit stand by, are

12 there any benefits that you can take of, with membership.

13 Scott says, well, that's basically it. I mean

14 the right to use our name on biographies and things like

15 that, and the wall plaque, and so, just to be affiliated

16 would be enough.

17 Does he say on there that the CD-ROM is thrown in

18 for good measure?

19 A I don't see that, no.

20 Q Does he say on there that you will get a Lear Jet?

21 A No.

22 Q A trip to the moon?

23 A No.
24 Q He tells you you could put the fact that you were in
25 Who's Who on a business card?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5205
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 A Amongst other things, yes.

2 Q And let's go to the next page.

3 The top of the page, the second attribution to

4 Scott, he talks about how you would get camera ready

5 artwork for your seal, of our seal.

6 Do you see that?

7 A Yes.

8 Q And you ask him about sending the check or a bill,

9 because the fact that Scott Michavelson and the other

10 salespeople were instructed to make only credit card sales

11 makes them guilty, right?

12 MR. WHITE: Objection.

13 THE COURT: Sustained.

14 Q So you go and do that song and dance with the check

15 and credit cards, whatever that was for and --

16 MR. WHITE: Objection.

17 THE COURT: Sustained.

18 Q You don't have the credit card on you, you say. That

19 was a lie, right? That was a figment of your imagination,

20 right?

21 A It is part of the investigation by the U.S. post

22 office, sir.

23 Q Did Marty Biegelman give you one of those Sherlock
24 Holmes hats and one of those magnifying glasses for your
25 investigation?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5206
Watst ein-cross/Neville


1 MR. WHITE: Objection.

2 THE COURT: Mr. Neville, do you have any

3 questions to ask to adduce relevant evidence?

4 MR. NEVILLE: Yes.

5 THE COURT: Proceed.

6 Objection sustained.

7 Q You didn't have any -- the rest of that conversation

8 was just about how you were going to call Scott back with

9 your credit card number and Scott gave you those

10 incriminatory statements, right?

11 MR. WHITE: Objection.

12 THE COURT: Sustained.

13 Q Now, let's look at the last question you asked,

14 Mr. Watstein, sir, to Scott, the bottom of that second to

15 last page.

16 Another one of your buzz words topics, how long

17 your company has been in business? Number three, one of

18 those topics, buzz words, yes?

19 A Is that on the list you are referring to, sir?

20 Q Number three, actually?

21 A It is on your list, y es.

22 Q And you say at the bottom there, don't you, umm, I,

23 I, you guys, you guys, umm, been in business for a long
24 time? Do you see that?
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5207
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 Q Why did you ask that question, sir?

2 A I wanted to determine if I would be receiving an

3 accurate answer or non-accurate answer. Part of my

4 evaluation --

5 Q Thank you.

6 A I am not finished.

7 Q I don't care if you are not finished. You answered

8 the question.

9 MR. WHITE: Objection.

10 THE COURT: Stop and answer the question.

11 A Mr. Rapaport, read back the question, please.

12 THE COURT: Don't talk to Mr. Rapaport, no one

13 talks to him except me.

14 THE WITNESS: I am sorry, would you read back the

15 answer, please.

16 THE COURT: Read it back, plea se, Mr. Rapaport.

17 (Whereupon, the court reporter reads the

18 requested material.)

19 THE COURT: The question is why did you ask that

20 question. What is your answer?

21 THE WITNESS: I wanted to determine if I was

22 receiving an accurate answer or not. If the answer was

23 accurate I would have that information. If not I
24 wouldn't. Those were the instructions given to me by
25 Inspector Biegelman, just to get accurate information.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5208
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 Q What did Scott say to you? Could you read it,

2 please?

3 A Where are you now, sir? The last page?

4 Q Yes; the answer Scott gave you after you asked him

5 how long the company had been in business? What did Scott

6 say?

7 A We've been in business for five years.

8 Q Off with his head, right?

9 M R. WHITE: Objection.

10 THE COURT: Sustained.

11 MR. NEVILLE: I have no further questions.

12 THE COURT: Anybody else?

13 MR. DUNN: Yes, your Honor.

14 THE COURT: You may proceed.

15 MR. DUNN: Thank you.

16

17 CROSS-EXAMINATION

18 BY MR. DUNN:

19 Q Good afternoon, Mr. Watstein.

20 A Good afternoon.

21 Q I am like the last defense lawyer over there.

22 A Thank god.

23 Q Sometimes it makes it hard because you may run out of
24 questions to ask.
25 Isn't it true that there have been times where

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5209
Watstein-cross/Dunn


1 you have given pep talks in a sense to real estate

2 salesmen? Is that correct?

3 A I believe that real estate salesmen attended my

4 seminars, but I don't believe I have done it with a

5 company itself, I may be mistake n.

6 Q But you have had seminars since your arrest, where

7 you have given seminars on how to sell; is that correct?

8 A Yes, sir.

9 Q And you are still doing that today?

10 A Yes, sir.

11 Q And you were doing that while you were cooperating

12 with the U.S. Government; is that correct?

13 A Yes, sir.

14 Q Now, I represent a fellow who you may have spoken to

15 by the name of Steve Walden; does that ring a bell, that

16 name, to you?

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q And do you recall that when you spoke to him, that

19 one of the job titles that you referred to was that you

20 were the director of consulting; is that correct? Does

21 that ring a bell?

22 A I would have to see a copy of the transcript to

23 refresh my memory, sir.
24 Q Okay.
25 Before I give you anything to refresh your

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COUR T REPORTER
5210
Watstein-cross/Dunn


1 recollection, do you also recall at some time in a

2 conversation describing yourself as a national key account

3 manager?

4 A I think so, but I am not positive, sir.

5 MR. DUNN: If I may approach, your Honor?

6 THE COURT: Yes.

7 (Counsel approaches the witness stand.)

8 Q The first one I want to show you is marked as

9 Government's Exhibit 1333-A, and I direct your attention

10 to page 2 of that transcript, where --

11 A Thank you.

12 Q Looking at that does it refresh your recollection

13 that at one time you used the job description as director

14 of consulting?

15 A Yes, sir.

16 Q Is it fair to say that that is in a conversation

17 which has the exhibit with the name of Steve Walden on it?

18 A Yes.

19 Q And I would also like you to take a look at what has

20 been marked a s what is in evidence as

21 Government's Exhibit 1330-A, and direct your attention

22 page 6 at the top, the first two lines. Does that refresh

23 your recollection about being a national account manager?
24 A The term is national key account.
25 Q Key account?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5211
Watstein-cross/Dunn


1 A Yes.

2 Q And is it fair to say in that transcript the name

3 Steve Walden appears?

4 A Yes.

5 Q And it is fair to say that's in a conversation you

6 had with Steve Walden; is that correct?

7 A Yes, sir.

8 Q Now, you also recall having a conversation with one

9 of the people who told you his name was Steve Walden, that

10 you stated at one time that I see where you got the

11 positive thinking from?

12 A I recall that phrase, yes.

13 Q And in fact, you stated after Mr. Walden stated it to

14 you, I was crippled for three years, I was hit by a

15 drunken driver, and they told me I would never walk again,

16 and now I play racketball; do you remember that being

17 discussed?

18 A In a general sense, yes.

19 Q And after that you stated, I see where you get the

20 positive thinking from; is that correct?

21 A Yes, sir.

22 Q Yesterday Mr. Trabulus asked you a couple of

23 questions about the criminal complaint back where you were
24 arrested back in 1992; do you recall that, those
25 questions?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5212
Watstein-cross/Dunn


1 A No, I don't.

2 Q You remember reviewing a complaint in United States

3 of America against Steven Samuel Watstein; do you recall

4 that?

5 A Yes, sir.

6 Q And that's something you reviewed with your attorney;

7 is that correct?

8 A In a general sense, yes.

9 Q And, in fact, when you reviewed that document, I

10 think Mr. Trabulus mentioned it was 100 pages yesterday,

11 when you reviewed that 100 page document, isn't a fact

12 that you noted that there were a number of confidential

13 informants that had worked for your company that had given

14 information to the government?

15 A That's correct, sir.

16 Q In fact, there were 27 confidential informants; isn't

17 that correct?

18 A Yes, sir.

19 Q And you reviewed that and went over it with your

20 attorney; is that correct?

21 A Only in a general sense.

22 Q You read the document, is that correct?

23 A Not completely.
24 Q Well, sir, it is almost the equivalent of a book; is
25 that correct?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5213
Watstein-cross/Dunn


1 A It is a large document, yes, sir.

2 Q And you wrote eight books yourself; is that correct?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q And wouldn't you say this is probably the most

5 important book dealing with you that you ever had to deal

6 with?

7 A I can't answer that question with a yes or no.

8 Q Let me ask you this: Did you know that a person

9 identified as confidential ^ informant number one, also

10 referred to as CI's, do you remember the term CI?

11 A Yes, sir.

12 Q And that CI number 1 informed the government, and was

13 placed in your complaint that customer credit cards were

14 charged numerous times for the same order. Do you

15 remember that?

16 A The statement in the complaint?

17 Q Yes.

18 A I remember that statement, yes.

19 Q And that's something that happened in your company?

20 A I believe it happened five or ten times by one

21 salesperson, yes, sir.

22 Q And, sir, that was a -- it was an occasion that you

23 encouraged; is that correct?
24 A No, sir.
25 Q Isn't it a fact that this confidential informant,

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5214
Watstein-cross/Dunn


1 who, by the way was in data processing and not a salesman;

2 do you recall that?

3 A I recall the entry in the complaint, yes, sir.

4 Q And the person it was a data processor. He was not a

5 salesman; is that correct?

6 A That's what is indicated, sir.

7 Q And this confidential informant said also that

8 duplicate checks were unwittingly remitted by a customer

9 in response to double billing, and that these checks were

10 cashed by the company; do you remember that?

11 A The statement or the incidents, sir?

12 Q The statement.

13 A Yes, sir.

14 Q Isn 't it a fact that there were occasions in the

15 company, your company, where customers would send in

16 checks for the same item, and you would go ahead and have

17 them cashed anyway; is that a fact?

18 A No.

19 Q And so, this confidential informant who was working

20 for the government at the time, was lying; is that

21 correct?

22 A I can't answer that with a yes or no, sir.

23 Q Now, there was a second confidential informant, a
24 data processing manager. And when you reviewed your
25 complaint with your attorney, were you aware of the fact

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5215
Watstein-cross/Dunn


1 that this confidential informant told the government that,

2 that sales would have slowed down to allow data entry to

3 catch up to the sales operation in order to put names

4 together in a form that made it possible to print the

5 second edition of Who's Who in U.S. Executives, and that

6 you, Mr. Watstein, refused to slow down sales in response

7 to that request by the data processing people?

8 A Is that a question, sir? I am sorry.

9 Q That was true, correct?

10 A Totally correct, yes.

11 Q And there was also a confidential informant, wasn't

12 there, that was working with the government, that was in a

13 managing accounting position, in your company?

14 A I recall seeing it in the complaint, yes, sir.

15 Q And that was a confidential informant who told the

16 government in this complaint, that hundreds of customer

17 complaints were received per day, and that depending on

18 the persistence of a customer, a credit might be issued.

19 Do you remember seeing that?

20 A I have seen the statement, yes, sir.

21 Q And do you remember seeing that same confidential

22 informant said that for someone to issue a credit was,

23 quote, a death wish, by an employee, because of your
24 opposition to the practice; do you seeing that in the
25 complaint?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5216
Watstein-cross/Dunn


1 A I saw it in the complaint, yes, sir.

2 Q And do you remember a person named Debra Horowitz?

3 A Yes.

4 Q And that's a person who worked for your company?

5 A Yes, sir.

6 Q And you are aware that according to a confidential

7 informant, in the complaint it states that told Horowitz

8 to sit on the claims for refunds as much as possible? Are

9 you aware of that?

10 MR. WHITE: Objection.

11 THE COURT: What ground?

12 MR. WHITE: The whole procedure reading from a

13 document not in evidence.

14 MR. DUNN: If I may?

15 THE COURT: He is asking the witness wheth er that

16 is true.

17 The document is not in evidence. The jury will

18 not see it. He is using it as a supply of questions for

19 him, which is all right. I will allow it. Overruled.

20 MR. DUNN: Thank you, your Honor.

21 Q I will repeat that.

22 A Thank you.

23 THE COURT: Members of the jury, you know a
24 complaint -- if you don't know, I am telling you -- a
25 complaint in a criminal case, like an indictment is an

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5217
Watstein-cross/Dunn


1 accusation. It has no evidentiary weight. You pay no

2 attention to it.

3 It is just an accusation.

4 Q Mr. Watstein, according to confidential informant

5 number 5 in the complaint, it states that Watstein told

6 Horowitz to sit on the claims for refunds as much as

7 possible.

8 Do you remember that?

9 A Do I remember it in the complaint, sir?

10 Q Yes.

11 A Yes, sir.

12 Q And do you remember that that confidential informant

13 said that Horowitz told customers a credit had or would be

14 issued and then did not process the credit; do you

15 remember that?

16 A I remember the statement in the complaint, yes, sir.

17 Q It is something you authorized; is that right?

18 A No, sir.

19 Q Is it a fact you were the head guy in the company?

20 A Yes.

21 Q And Horowitz worked for you?

22 A Yes, sir.

23 Q And you told her to sit on these things?
24 A That's statement as made is inaccurate.
25 Q This confidential informant giving information to the

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5218
Watstein-cross/Dunn


1 government was giving inaccurate information; is that

2 correct?

3 A Only partially, sir.

4 Q Do you recall in the complaint that this confidential

5 informant stated that Horowitz told customers requesting

6 credits that she would pull their file and get back to

7 them, which she routinely did not do?

8 A I recall it in the complaint, sir.

9 Q That's a fact, sir, correct?

10 A Totally accurate.

11 Q Horowitz would get the calls and tell people she

12 would pull the file and never did it?

13 A Totally accurate.

14 Q Based on your instruction, was it?

15 A No, sir.

16 Q Now, you recall also there was a confidential

17 informant working for you a clerk in your customer service

18 area?

19 A No, sir, I don't.

20 MR. DUNN: If I may approach?

21 (Counsel approaches the witness stand.)

22 Q Look at page 47 at the top, CI-11, and read the first

23 sentence or so and see if it refreshes your recollection.
24 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
25 proceedings.)

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5219
Watstein-cross/Dunn


1 Q Does that refresh your recollection about the

2 customer service person?

3 A Not totally, but it is certainly in the complaint,

4 yes, sir.

5 Q And that's the complaint that you reviewed with your

6 attorney; is that correct?

7 A As I indicated, reviewed it in a general sense, yes.

8 Q This case when you were arrested was important to

9 you; is that correct?

10 A Yes, sir.

11 Q You paid a lot of money for attorneys?

12 A Yes, sir, and, therefore, I accepted their judgment,

13 yes.

14 Q And this 100 page book was important to you, correct?

15 A Yes, sir.

16 Q Isn't it true that this person in the customer

17 service area informed the government that numerous

18 complaints w ere received alleging the failure to render --

19 meaning to give over, by your company, ordered

20 merchandise?

21 A That that person said that? Yes, sir.

22 Q Yes.

23 In fact, there was merchandise that was ordered
24 from your company that you never did produce; is that
25 correct?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5220
Watstein-cross/Dunn


1 A An accurate statement, sir, yes.

2 Q And that confidential informant also informed the

3 government there was a failure on your company's part to

4 make refunds as promised; is that correct?

5 A Partially correct, yes, sir.

6 Q That was something that you insisted on; is that

7 correct?

8 A I cannot answer with a yes or no, sir.

9 Q And that confidential informant also told the

10 government, isn't it true that you instructed him and

11 others to false ly tell customers that their ordered

12 merchandise had already been sent to them; isn't that true

13 that that was in the complaint?

14 A It was in the complaint, yes, sir.

15 Q And it is true; correct?

16 A I don't have a recollection of that conversation,

17 sir, no.

18 Q And so, this is another confidential informant?

19 A It was partially inaccurate only.

20 Q That was partially inaccurate?

21 A Yes, sir.

22 Q And that confidential informant also told the

23 government that your company stated in reference to
24 refunds, that your check is in the mail; is that correct,
25 in reference to the complaint?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5221
Watstein-cross/Dunn


1 A The company stated that?

2 Q Some representative of the company?

3 A I am sure it is accurate, sir.

4 Q It is something you bas ically told your people to

5 say; is that correct?

6 A No, sir.

7 Q Never told them to say the check is in the mail just

8 to get them off the phone?

9 A No, sir.

10 Q Another inaccuracy in the complaint; is that correct?

11 A Another partial inaccuracy, yes, sir.

12 Q Partial inaccuracy as contrasted with an inaccuracy;

13 is that right?

14 A As contrasted with a total inaccuracy, sir.

15 Q Something is either inaccurate or it is not; is that

16 correct?

17 A Not if it has sub components to it, sir.

18 Q That's like the sub-sets in math; is that right?

19 A I don't know, sir.

20 Q Isn't it a fact that that complaint, in that

21 complaint the confidential informant also said that you

22 said that customer complaints were not a priority. Is

23 that in the complaint?
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q That's a fact, is it not?



HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5222
Watstein-cross/Dunn


1 A A partially accurate statement, sir.

2 Q I bet this confidential informant didn't get a walk

3 if he is so inaccurate?

4 A I don't understand the question, sir.

5 Q I will withdraw it.

6 A Thank you.

7 Q That confidential informant said to the government,

8 sets forth to the government, that customers paid by

9 credit card were falsely told that a refund would be

10 given, when in fact this was not possible due to the

11 cancellation of the customer's credit card accounts? Is

12 that in the complaint, sir?

13 A Yes, sir.

14 Q Is that partially inaccurate?

15 A Totally accurate, sir.

16 Q Totally accurate?

17 A Totally accurate, sir.

18 Q And your company had what would be known as merchant

19 accounts with banks; is that correct?

20 A Yes, sir.

21 Q And that's something where you get a merchant account

22 with a bank, so you as a company can take credit cards

23 from individuals; is that right?
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q And there is a thing called charge backs, or pay

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5223
Watstein-cross/Dunn


1 backs?

2 A Yes.

3 Q And that's something where someone would have

4 something charged to their accounts and maybe changed

5 their mind, and say, I don't want that paid, and that

6 would be the equivalent of a charge back; is that correct?

7 A Not quite accurate, sir, but in a general sense it is

8 accurate.

9 Q And isn't it accurate that a bank handling a merchant

10 account would frown -- strike the question.

11 Isn't it fair to say in your dealings with banks

12 concerning merchant accounts that if there w ere a lot of

13 charge backs, that the bank might decide that we can't

14 deal with this company any more; is that fair to say?

15 A Yes, sir.

16 Q And your merchant account was cancelled; is that

17 correct?

18 A Eventually, yes, sir.

19 Q Now, there was another confidential informant that

20 worked if the mail room, and was also a chauffeur for

21 you. Do you remember that?

22 A No, I don't.

23 Q Do you remember somebody in the mail room was also a
24 chauffeur?
25 A I don't have the recollection, but it is quite

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5224
Watstein-cross/Dunn


1 possible.

2 Q When you reviewed the complaint, do you remember that

3 one of the employees working in the mail room was also a

4 confidential informant?

5 A I don't have a recollection, no.

6 Q Let me show you this on page 48 and see if it

7 refreshes your recollection, and I direct your attention

8 to the bottom of the page, where it says CI-12.

9 (Handed to the witness.)

10 Q If you read the two lines on that page and the couple

11 of lines on the following page.

12 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the

13 proceedings.)

14 A Yes.

15 Q Does it refresh your recollection after reviewing

16 that --

17 A Yes.

18 Q It does?

19 A Yes, thank you.

20 Q Does it refresh your recollection that the person was

21 not only a mail employee, mail room employee, but also a

22 chauffeur for you?

23 A Yes.
24 Q By the way, when you were in this business, did you
25 have a tendency to use limousines?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5225
Watstein-cross/Dunn


1 A Yes, sir.

2 Q And when was the last time you used a limousine?

3 A This morning.

4 Q What kind of limousine was it?

5 A A Lincoln limousine.

6 Q How big was it?

7 A I don't know, sir.

8 Q More than a regular sedan?

9 A Yes. That's normally the size of limousines.

10 Q That's the equivalent of a stretch limousine?

11 A Yes, sir.

12 Q And that's something you used to come to court today?

13 A Yes, I received it for nothing.

14 Q You received it for nothing?

15 A Yes.

16 Q It brings back memories of the good old days?

17 A Yes, sir, an accurate description.

18 Q Do you recall when you reviewed the complaint that

19 that confidential employee, the mail room employee who was

20 a chauffeur at times, stated he saw about 100 customer

21 complaint letters a day, up to 100?

22 A Is the phraseology up to 100?

23 Q Up to.
24 A Yes, sir.

2 5 Q Maybe 96, maybe 99, up to?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5226
Watstein-cross/Dunn


1 A Yes, sir.

2 Q Now, do you remember there is a confidential

3 informant 14, in a clerical position, and later in

4 customer service and in operations, and he told the

5 government, and it was put in the complaint, that he saw

6 many complaints relating to the failure to render. Do you

7 remember that?

8 A No. But I believe it is accurate.

9 Q The failure to render means failure to render

10 merchandise; is that correct?

11 A Yes, sir.

12 Q And also complaints about inferior products; is that

13 correct?

14 A Was there a number in front of that, sir?

15 Q Just inferior products?

16 A I am sure there were complaints about that.

17 Q And that's accurate, correct?

18 A I am not sure if it is accurate or not, no.

19 Q And --

20 A It is accurate there were complaints, inferior or

21 not, I am not sure, sir, no.

22 Q By the way, Mr. Watstein, this limousine, that you

23 got out of today, did you get out of it on the courthouse
24 property?
25 A No.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5227
Watstein-cross/Dunn


1 I parked it farther not to offend anyone, sir.

2 Q You want us to have not seen that?

3 A It would cause a controversy perhaps and a diversion

4 in the trial.

5 Q And we wouldn't want any diversions, would we?

6 A I believe not, sir.

7 Q Now, your Who's Who had some kind of biographies in

8 it; is that correct?

9 A Yes, sir.

10 Q And is it fair to say that this confidential

11 informant number 14, told the government about wrong

12 biography being included in the directory; is that

13 correct?

14 A Yes, sir.

15 Q Is that happened?

16 A Yes, sir.

17 Q Now, did you have people actually saying that

18 pictures would be placed in the directory?

19 A Yes, sir.

20 Q And it is also stated that no pictures were placed in

21 the directory, that's what some of the complaints are

22 about?

23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q And also the confidential informant talks about
25 failure to refund; is that right?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5228
Watstein-cross/Dunn


1 A I believe it is accurate, there was a failure to

2 refund.

3 Q There was a person named Cathy -- if I am

4 mispronouncing it, let me know, Shkinder, S H K I N D E R;

5 is that correct?

6 A Yes, sir.

7 Q And Linda Zeitzer, Z E I T Z E R?

8 A Yes, sir.

9 Q Is it is it fair to say they were in customer

10 service?

11 A Yes.

12 Q And isn't it true in this complaint this confidential

13 informant number 14 states that Shkinder and Zeitzer

14 stated a customer had to mail or fax his credit card

15 statement in order to be eligible for a refund? That's in

16 the complaint?

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q And that happened?

19 A I believe they said that, yes, sir.

20 Q It is something you instructed them to do; is that

21 correct?

22 A No, sir.

23 Q Was that done to double-bill?
24 A No, sir.
25 Q Now, there was another confidential informant, number

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5229
Watstein-cross/Dunn


1 16, that is described as a secretary for you? You can

2 recall that the secretary said that you told the secretary

3 many times to tell the customers that the book had been

4 sent to th em; you remember that being in the complaint?

5 A Yes, sir.

6 Q That's a fact?

7 A I am not sure if I did or not, but it is very

8 possible, sir.

9 Q And this secretary, it is put in the complaint, that

10 the customer service personnel routinely hung up on

11 disgruntled customers, that's in the complaint?

12 A Yes.

13 Q And it is accurate?

14 A Yes. I think it is accurate, yes.

15 Q And this Linda Zeitzer refused to talk to customers

16 on the telephone; is that correct?

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q There was another confidential informant who

19 states -- it is referred to in the complaint that Shkinder

20 and Zeitzer hung up on customers and sometimes would not

21 accept customers' phone calls, would not return customers'

22 calls and threw away their messages. That's in the

23 complaint?
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q It is accurate?



HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5230
Watstein-cross/Dunn


1 A Yes.

2 Q And they worked for you?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q The complaint also states from a confidential

5 informant 19, that at your direction he, the confidential

6 informant, threatened customers with loss of credit rating

7 if they did not pay their bill. That's in the complaint,

8 correct?

9 A Yes, sir.

10 Q And that is something you reviewed with your

11 attorney; is that correct?

12 A I don't believe so, no.

13 Q The statement is accurate, correct?

14 A No, the statement is not accurate, sir.

15 Q You never told that to this person?

16 A That is correct, I never told it to that person is

17 that correct.

18 Q Or anybody else?

19 A Not that's I can recall, sir.

20 Q So, this fellow is inaccurate?

21 A That's co rrect.

22 Q There was another confidential informant, number 20,

23 who states that you sent out collection letters to people
24 who had not ordered merchandise. That's in the complaint,
25 correct?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5231
Watstein-cross/Dunn


1 A Yes, sir.

2 Q And that's inaccurate?

3 A I can't answer that with a yes or no, sir.

4 Q One of those partial inaccuracies?

5 A I can't answer with a yes or no. If you want to ask

6 a question I will be happy to respond to.

7 Q Mr. White will be up here in a few minutes, and he

8 can ask you those questions?

9 A Okay. Thank you, sir.

10 Q Confidential number 20, it is set forth in the

11 complaint, saw multiple invoices for the same customer.

12 That's in the complaint, correct?

13 A Yes, sir.

14 Q And that's accurate, correct?

1 5 A I am sure it happened a couple of times, yes, sir.

16 Q Just a couple of times?

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q And these were multiple invoices for people who

19 already paid their bill; is that right?

20 A No.

21 Q And that would not be accurate if the confidential

22 informant said that he saw multiple invoices for the same

23 customer who had already paid, that would be inaccurate?
24 A To the best of the my knowledge, yes, sir.
25 Q This confidential informant apparently also told the

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5232
Watstein-cross/Dunn


1 government, when this was mentioned to you, you replied

2 you didn't want to hear about it. Do you remember seeing

3 that in the complaint?

4 A No, I don't, sir, but I am sure it was in the

5 complaint.

6 Q And I guess it is totally inaccurate; is that

7 correct?

8 A I don't have a recollection of that at all, sir.

9 Q This confidential informant states that -- it is

10 stated in the complaint, that customers complain that they

11 received credit card refund slips, but no credit from the

12 merchant bank.

13 That's in the complaint; is that correct?

14 A Yes, sir.

15 Q And that is accurate; is it not?

16 A Yes, sir.

17 Q And so, your company was sending back refund slips to

18 customers; is that correct?

19 A That is correct.

20 Q And these customers apparently, it was the intention

21 to have them believe that they were getting credit; is

22 that right?

23 A I can't answer that with a yes or no, sir.
24 Q They weren't getting credit though -- they were
25 getting credit from the merchant bank; is that right?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5233
Watstein-cro ss/Dunn


1 A They should have, yes, sir.

2 Q But this person stated to the government that that

3 didn't happen?

4 A I can't respond to your question with a yes or no.

5 Q This must be one of those other totally inaccurate

6 statements by a confidential informant; is that correct?

7 A No, sir, it is partially accurate.

8 Q But the part that is totally accurate though, is the

9 one where you intended to mislead the customers?

10 A I don't understand the question. Can you rephrase

11 it?

12 Q You don't understand the question?

13 A No. Rephrase it.

14 Q See if you can refresh my recollection.

15 You went to the University of Pennsylvania?

16 A Yes, sir.

17 Q The Wharton School of Business, isn't that like the

18 most elite school of business in the country?

19 A It is one of them.

20 Q If not the number one?

21 A Yes.

22 Q You need me to rephrase the question I just asked

23 you?
24 A Out of hundred you ask me.
25 Q Partially -- it is partially because I am blinded by

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5234
Watstein-cross/Dunn


1 the partially, total stuff that is confusing. I will try

2 to be guided in my questions.

3 MR. WHITE: Objection.

4 THE COURT: It is a statement and not a

5 question. I have already instructed the jury several

6 times that statements are not evidence. Statements made

7 now, statements made in opening statements, statements

8 made in summations are not evidence.

9 Of course, the opening and summations you have to

10 pay attention to and listen to carefully, and consider

11 them.

12 Of course, that's the lawyer's view of evidence,

13 but these statements, the gratuitous remarks made in

14 m oments perhaps of anger or frustration, or delight, or

15 anything else, pay no attention to them. I will let the

16 lawyers every once in a while say this. It can't be

17 helped. It will not affect you, I know.

18 Q And that same confidential informant, number 20, sir,

19 isn't it a fact in the complaint that he told the

20 government that you directed that a check payable to

21 Marquis Who's Who be deposited in your company account?

22 A Absolutely not.

23 Q Totally not accurate?
24 A Totally, sir.
25 Q Never happened?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5235
Watstein-cross/Dunn


1 A Never happened, sir.

2 Q The same confidential informant in the complaint said

3 that you directed Debra Horowitz to re-bill credit card

4 customers who had already received charge backs. And

5 that's in the complaint. And that's acc urate also,

6 aside -- that is an accurate event, sir?

7 A Yes, sir, it is.

8 Q And it was also confidential. Number 21, who saw a

9 customer -- saw customer complaints about double-billing

10 on credit card accounts.

11 Do you remember that in the complaint?

12 A No, I don't, but I am sure it is in there.

13 Q Is it accurate?

14 A Accurate in there?

15 Q Is it an accurate fact that it happened in your

16 company?

17 A On one occasion by one salesperson, yes.

18 Q Single occasion?

19 A One occasion on five or six different incidents by

20 one salesperson.

21 Q This complaint uses the plural, double-billing on

22 credit card accounts?

23 A Yes, sir, more than one account, but one single
24 salesperson.
25 Q Was there a person working for you named Lee

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5 236
Watstein-cross/Dunn


1 Moskowitz?

2 A Yes.

3 Q And you remember there was a confidential informant

4 number 23, who apparently told the government that Lee

5 Moskowitz has been caught processing unauthorized orders

6 and Moskowitz was promoted to sales manager.

7 Do you remember that in the complaint?

8 A Yes, sir.

9 Q Accurate, partially accurate, totally inaccurate?

10 A Moskowitz was caught in processing improper credit

11 cards.

12 Q Sir, I am asking you, use your own terminology, is it

13 totally accurate, partially accurate?

14 A The sequence is inaccurate.

15 Q But, again, this confidential informant who was

16 working for the government was inaccurate about the

17 sequence; is that right?

18 A That is correct. But not about the facts.

19 Q Do you know that there was a second confidential

20 informant, a number 27 , that in the complaint it says:

21 Lee Moskowitz openly acknowledged charging customer credit

22 cards multiple times, when Watstein learned of this

23 Moskowitz was not terminated. Instead, he was later
24 promoted.
25 Do you remember that in the complaint?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5237
Watstein-cross/Dunn


1 A Yes, sir.

2 Q And this is a second confidential informant; is that

3 correct?

4 A Yes, sir.

5 Q And that's referring to the same thing; is that

6 right?

7 A Yes.

8 Q Again, that person is wrong on the sequence; is that

9 right?

10 A The facts are correct, sir.

11 Q But the sequence is wrong according to you; is that

12 correct?

13 A Yes, sir.

14 Q So, these two confidential informants were wrong on

15 their sequences; is that right?

16 A But not on th eir facts.

17 Q Yesterday you mentioned you made 60 or 61 calls; is

18 that correct?

19 A 61, sir.

20 Q And you were asked questions about split billing; do

21 you remember that?

22 A Yes, sir.

23 Q I will withdraw it and try to put it in proper
24 context.
25 You were asked questions about discussing split

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5238
Watstein-cross/Dunn


1 billing -- I shouldn't say discussed, but being informed

2 by -- about split billing by people who worked at Who's

3 Who Worldwide; is that correct?

4 A Yes, sir.

5 Q Correct me if I am wrong, but it was your testimony

6 that 50 percent or more of those calls you were not

7 advised about split billing; is that correct?

8 A That's my best guess and recollection, yes, sir.

9 Q I would like to direct your attention, if I may, to

10 Government's Exhibit 1300-A, page 4.

11 Do you have a copy of that?

12 A No, sir.

13 Q I will come up to you.

14 MR. WHITE: You say it is 1300?

15 MR. DUNN: 1300-A.

16 Q Now, 1300-A is in evidence, so we can read from it.

17 Is it fair to say where it says Scott, he says,

18 okay, we have two memberships, we have a lifetime

19 membership and a five-year membership, which is split

20 billed. A lifetime membership is 490 now and 137 in

21 December when the registry is released. A one time -- it

22 says unintelligible, the five-year membership is 290 now,

23 and then 137 in December.
24 After the first year your annual dues are only
25 $49 a year. That includes everything, the registry, the

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5239
Watstein-cross/Dunn


1 wall plaque, all your benefits and privileges.

2 The only difference between the membership is the

3 CD-ROM disk is also unintelligible, lifetime versus five

4 year, unintelligible.

5 Is that an accurate reading of that section of

6 the transcript?

7 A Totally.

8 Q It is fair to say that split billing was being

9 discussed by Scott?

10 A In that instance, yes, sir.

11 Q And that Scott is -- it is hard to read, but on my

12 copy it is Scott Michavelson; is that correct?

13 A Yes, sir.

14 Q I would like to direct your attention to

15 Government's Exhibit 1324-A, where the participants are --

16 did I get you?

17 A Yes.

18 Q Sorry about that.

19 A You have been trying that for a while.

20 MR. TRABULUS: What number is that?

21 MR. DUNN: 1324-A.

22 Q Government's Exhibit 1324-A, shows the participants

23 are Steven West, and a/k/a Brian Schnably, S C H N A B L Y,
24 an d Laura Winters, and in parenthesis Laura; is that
25 right?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5240
Watstein-cross/Dunn


1 A Yes, sir.

2 Q And if I direct your attention to page 4 of that

3 transcript, 1324-A, at the bottom, and is it accurate

4 where it says at the bottom, Laura, and that is, you know,

5 it depends on the cost. Let's say right now there is a

6 five-year membership. And this other person, it is

7 attributed I guess to you, and it says BS.

8 A Yes.

9 Q And it says right?

10 A Yes.

11 Q And Laura, which is 350. And the BS says right.

12 A Yes.

13 Q And Laura says, and then, is 99 -- and this will be

14 for December of '95 when the registry is released.

15 Is that accurate?

16 A Totally accurate.

17 Q Referring to split billing; is that correct?

18 A In that instance, yes, sir.

19 Q And I would like to direct your attention now to

20 Government's Exhibit 1325-A, which is the next

21 Government's Exhibit in the book.

22 A What was the previous number before that one?

23 Q 1324.
24 A Thank you.
25 Q In 1325-A, it says the participants are Steven West,

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5241
Watstein-cross/Dunn


1 a/k/a Chuck Sampson, and the next no name is -- known name

2 is Annette Haley; is that right?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q And I would like to direct your attention in the

5 transcript to page 7, the sixth attribution which starts

6 with Annette.

7 But let me tell you, for a five-year membership,

8 it is 350 now, and CS says right.

9 And Annette says, and 99 in December of 1995 when

10 the registry is released.

11 Then at the bottom of the page, the fourth

12 attribution from the bottom, CS says, so lifetime is 550

13 plus 99.

14 Annette, 99 in December of 1995.

15 CS, gotcha.

16 That was split billing that was discussed there;

17 is that correct?

18 A Totally accurate, yes, sir. I used the phrase,

19 gotcha, did I, to an accuracy? I see.

20 MR. SCHOER: Objection. Ask it be stricken. It

21 is unresponsive to the question.

22 THE COURT: Motion granted. Strike out the last

23 response by the witness, and the jury is instructed to
24 disregard it.
25 Q I would like to also now direct your attention to

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5242
Watstein-cross/Dunn


1 Government's Exhibit 1351-A, which -- is it fair to say

2 that it has the name Steven West and also has the name

3 Scott Michavelson; is that fair to say?

4 A Yes, sir.

5 Q And now I would like to, in that Exhibit 1351-A,

6 direct your attention to page 15, the fifth attribution

7 from the top, where it says Scott. And what is attributed

8 to Scott is, but also, they have a ten-year membership,

9 which is $295 a month, which is billed again three

10 consecutive months.

11 And BI goes umm umm, uh-huh.

12 Scott, they have an additional balance of $99 in

13 December when the registry is released, and that's a one

14 time charge.

15 After that are annual -- our annual dues of $49

16 per year, which maintains your benefits and quarterly

17 magazine.

18 Split billing discussed there, sir?

19 A Absolutely.

20 Q That's accurate?

21 A Accurate.

22 Q I will show you Government's Exhibit 1330-A, which is

23 on the one I have, has the name Steve Walden on it.
24 Is that fair to say?
25 A Yes, sir.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CS R, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5243
Watstein-cross/Dunn


1 Q I direct your attention to page 23, the fourth

2 attribution from the top, where it says Steve Walden, and

3 it starts, umm, with the lifetime gold it's split bill.

4 And then further down, after you skip the male

5 voice, it says, the lifetime gold, they will bill you 1250

6 now.

7 Male voice, right.

8 Steve Walden, then 99 next to -- next December

9 when the registry itself is released.

10 A That's correct, sir.

11 Q I would also like to direct your attention now to

12 Government's Exhibit 1333-A, and direct your attention to

13 where it says the parties are Steven West, a/k/a Scott

14 Goldberg, and a Steve Walden; is that correct?

15 A Yes, sir.

16 Q And I direct your attention to the top of page 15

17 where the first attribution refers to a Steve, where it is

18 st ated, now, right now we have a ten year gold and

19 lifetime gold memberships available. The initiation for

20 the lifetime gold membership is only 1250 now, and then 99

21 next December when the registry in a gold bound edition is

22 released; is that accurate?

23 A Yes.
24 Q And then it goes on to discuss in the next
25 attribution of -- we cut down to the third sentence, the

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5244
Watstein-cross/Dunn


1 ten-year gold membership is the -- the initiation is only

2 950 now and 99 next December.

3 Is that talking about split billing?

4 A Yes, sir.

5 Q And you say the majority of your calls, sir, more

6 than 50 percent, no split billing; is that correct?

7 A To the best of my recollection of the 61 tapes, the

8 50 percent did not mention it.

9 Q And those four individuals that I hav e shown you,

10 Annette Haley, Laura, Scott Michavelson, Steve Rubin, those

11 four salespeople are sitting in this courtroom. They

12 talked to you about split billing?

13 A Yes, sir.

14 Q Other salespeople didn't tell you about split billing

15 apparently; is that correct?

16 A Yes, sir.

17 Q You are good at what you do, correct, sir? Teaching

18 people how to speak?

19 A I think so, sir.

20 Q You played a role in this case; is that correct?

21 A I assisted the post office, correct.

22 Q It was a role, correct?

23 A Partially correct.
24 Q You were acting a role, like an actor; is that right?
25 A Partially correct.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5245
Watstein-cross/Dunn


1 Q You had a script you were working off, correct?

2 A No, sir.

3 Q You created it yourself?

4 A There was no script, sir.

5 Q It calls for a yes or no. Did you create anything

6 yourself?

7 A No, sir.

8 Q You just did it off the top of your head?

9 A Yes, sir.

10 Q You talked with Biegelman about what to say on the

11 phone; is that correct?

12 A Only to a limited extent.

13 Q Sir, you talked with him about mailing lists; is that

14 correct?

15 A No, sir.

16 Q Didn't he tell you that mailing lists are really

17 important? Did he tell you that?

18 A No, sir.

19 Q He never said that to you?

20 A No, sir.

21 Q He didn't tell you we are going to march people in

22 here and tell them about mailing lists, and that's why

23 everybody is upset? He didn't tell you that?
24 A Not at all, sir.
25 Q He didn't tell you it is important to say, hey, man,

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
52 46
Watstein-cross/Dunn


1 I am on the sucker list or something?

2 A No, sir.

3 Q Never discussed that?

4 A Never discussed that.

5 Q Your goal was to get out of jail -- withdrawn.

6 Your objective was to make sure you didn't go to

7 jail?

8 A I can't answer it yes or no.

9 Q There is an answer out there where you can explain

10 it?

11 A Would you like to ask the question?

12 Q I am saying is there an answer out there that

13 explains that; is that correct?

14 A Yes, sir.

15 Q You wrote a book, you wrote a book on how to live to

16 be 100 years of age; is that correct?

17 A That's correct, sir.

18 Q You didn't write a book to live 100 years of age if

19 you had to spend any time in jail; is that correct?

20 A I can't answer that question, sir.

21 Q Inaccurate, partially inaccurate, totally

22 inaccurate?

23 I will withdraw the question.
24 A Thank you.
25 THE COURT: All right.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5247
Watstein-redirect/White


1 Have we covered all the defense attorneys now?

2 Any redirect?

3 MR. WHITE: Yes, your Honor.

4

5 REDIRECT EXAMINATION

6 BY MR. WHITE:

7 Q Mr. West --

8 THE COURT: Wait a minute now.

9 We will take a five-minute recess.

10 Members of the jury, please do not discuss the

11 case and keep an open mind.

12 Please recess yourself.

13

14 (Whereupon, a recess is taken.)

15

16 THE COURT: Let the record indicate that the

17 defendant Laura Weitz left the courtroom, I am sure for

18 some emergency, and I had to recess the jury until she

19 returned. Now I am bringing her back. And I see that the

20 defendant Laura Weitz is back in the courtroom.

21 Is everybody else here?

22 MR. NELSON: Yes, Judge.

23 THE COURT: All right.
24 THE CLERK: Jury entering.
25 (Whereupon, the jury at this time entered the

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5248
Watstein-redirect/White


1 courtroom.)

2 THE COURT: Please be seated, members of the

3 jury.

4 You may proceed, Mr. White.

5 MR. WHITE: Thank you, your Honor.

6

7 REDIRECT EXAMINATION (cont'd)

8 BY MR. WHITE:

9 Q Mr. West, you were cross-examined for three days

10 about your prior crimes.

11 Does any of that change what the defendants said

12 to you on the tapes that you made?

13 A No, sir.

14 Q Mr. Geduldig asked you about the money you made in

15 connection with your crimes.

16 Does any of that change what the defendants said

17 to you on the tape s that you made?

18 A No, sir.

19 Q We have heard constantly about the refunds that your

20 company did or didn't give.

21 Does any of that change what the defendants said

22 on the tapes you made?

23 A No, sir.
24 Q Whether or not you paid your taxes.
25 Does it change what the defendants said on the

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5249
Watstein-redirect/White


1 tapes you made?

2 A No, sir.

3 Q Whether or not you put property in your wife's name.

4 Does that change what the defendants said on the

5 tapes you made?

6 A No, sir.

7 Q Does whether or not -- does how much your suit cost

8 change what the defendants said on the tapes you made?

9 A No, sir.

10 Q Did you force or make any person you talked to to

11 give you a particular answer to the questions you asked?

12 A No, s ir.

13 Q Now, you were asked repeatedly about names and

14 occupations you assumed in connection with these calls; do

15 you recall that?

16 A Yes.

17 Q And you were asked repeatedly as to whether or not

18 you thought they were lies; do you remember that?

19 A Yes.

20 Q And can you explain why you don't think they were?

21 A Phone calls were made in conjunction with a postal

22 investigation, and the identities I assumed, the questions

23 I asked were all part of a postal investigation. It would
24 have been most not appropriate for me to have indicated
25 anything to the contrary. And in no way did I force any

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5250
Watstein-redirect/White


1 of the responses from the recipents.

2 As a practical matter, some answers were honest,

3 and some were not honest.

4 Q Now, if someone acting at the government's direction

5 operated undercover to catch a criminal, does that mean

6 they are lying?

7 A No, sir, not in my judgment.

8 MR. SCHOER: Objection.

9 MR. JENKS: Objection.

10 THE COURT: Sustained. Strike out the answer.

11 Q Now, in connection with the calls you made, were you

12 given any instructions by either Inspector Leonard or

13 Inspector Biegelman?

14 A Yes, sir.

15 Q And did they give you any instructions as to whether

16 or not you were to seek any incriminating information on

17 the tapes?

18 A None whatsoever, sir.

19 Q Tell us what they told you on that subject?

20 MR. NELSON: Objection.

21 THE COURT: Overruled.

22 A Inspector Biegelman gave me two instructions

23 initially. The instructions were to be honest and
24 truthful, and I would receive credit no matter the
25 outcome.



HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5251
Watstein-redirect/White


1 Q How many tapes total did you make in connection with

2 these tapes?

3 A 61, as relating to the phone calls, plus the calls

4 from the Garden City Hotel.

5 Q Now, did you provide Inspector Biegelman with all the

6 calls you made in connection with the Who's Who Worldwide

7 case?

8 A Yes, sir, each and every tape.

9 Q And some of the defense attorneys showed you tapes

10 where the defendants were truthful; is that right?

11 A Yes, sir.

12 Q Did you turn those over to Inspector Biegelman?

13 A Yes, sir.

14 Q So the defense attorneys have them now because you

15 turned it over to the government; is that right?

16 A Yes, sir.

17 MR. GEDULDIG: Objection, your Honor.

18 THE COURT: Overruled.

19 MR. GEDULDIG: I ask for an instruc tion. They

20 turned it over to us under an obligation.

21 THE COURT: Yes.

22 The government is obligated to turn over all that

23 material before the trial.
24 MR. WHITE: Let me rephrase the question then.
25 Q The government had all those tapes because you turned

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5252
Watstein-redirect/White


1 it over to Inspector Biegelman; is that right?

2 A That is correct.

3 Q Now, did you receive any instructions from the postal

4 inspectors regarding tapes that you made that might

5 exonerate people?

6 A I don't understand the question, Mr. White.

7 Q Did you receive any instructions from the postal

8 inspectors, regarding the possibility that your tapes

9 might exonerate people?

10 A Yes, sir.

11 Q Tell us what you were told.

12 A I was told by Inspector Biegelman that I was

13 prepared -- give him each and every tape without

14 exception. And I would receive, in quotes, credit,

15 regardless of the outcome of those tapes, no matter what

16 the parties had to say on the phone.

17 Q Did you participate in investigations which resulted

18 in individuals under investigation in fact being

19 exonerated?

20 A Yes, sir.

21 Q You were asked frequently about a list of questions

22 you had raised in these conversations; do you remember

23 that?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And tell us where you got that list of questions and

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5253
Watstein-redirect/White


1 subjects from?

2 A From my experience in my own Who's Who.

3 Q And those questions that you were asked a few days

4 ago now, as to whether those questions were designed to

5 elicit a specific ans wer, were they?

6 A No.

7 Q And what do you mean by that?

8 A The folks that I spoke to could have either answered

9 honestly or dishonestly based on what they chose to

10 respond.

11 Q Mr. West, let me show you

12 Government's Exhibit 3500-22-I that you were shown over

13 the last few days.

14 (Handed to the witness.)

15 Q Now, that's the letter that the government wrote to

16 the judge advising him of your cooperation; is that right?

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q And you were asked about two passages, at least two

19 passages there, if you look on page 4.

20 A Yes, sir.

21 Q The third paragraph.

22 A Yes.

23 Q You were asked about the portion of the last sentence
24 where the government refers to, quote, your long-term
25 criminal and fraudulent conduct; is that right?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5254
Watstein-redirect/White


1 A Yes, sir.

2 Q So, is it correct that at your sentencing the

3 government advised the Court of your long-term criminal

4 and fraudulent conduct?

5 A That is correct, sir.

6 Q And if you look at the next paragraph, you were asked

7 questions about that, where it refers to the, quote, tens

8 of thousands of people he has victimized, unquote.

9 Do you see that?

10 A Yes, sir.

11 Q And were the facts regarding the victims of your

12 crimes made known to the judge at your sentencing?

13 A Yes, sir.

14 Q Now, if you could review that 5K letter, and tell us

15 if in that letter the government recommends any specific

16 sentence to the Court?

17 A No, sir.

18 Q Does that letter recommend that you get house arrest?

19 A No, sir.

20 Q Does it recommend that you receive probation?

21 A No, sir.

22 Q And you ultimately received house arrest and

23 probation; is that right?
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q Who decided you get that sentence?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5255
Watstein-redirect/White


1 A Judge Mishler.

2 Q Did the government decide that you get that sentence?

3 A No, sir.

4 Q Tell us your understanding if whether, after

5 receiving that letter, if Judge Mishler could have

6 sentenced you to the original 70 months in jail?

7 A My understanding is that it freed Judge Mishler from

8 the guidelines, but gave him full discretion what sentence

9 he would give me.

10 Q Your original sentence it was in the range of 70

11 months?

12 A Yes, sir.

13 Q Could he have given you 70 months after the letter?

14 A Yes, sir.

15 Q Could he have given you 35 months?

16 A Yes, sir.

17 Q Could he have given you 12 months?

18 A Yes.

19 Q And he decided that; is that correct?

20 A That's correct.

21 Q Now, you were asked an awful lot about your

22 cooperation with the government, correct?

23 A That's correct.
24 Q Did Judge Mishler ask you to do anything with respect
25 to your cooperation?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5256
Watstein-redirect/White


1 A He asked me to continue my cooperation, yes, sir.

2 Q Was that made a condition of your probation?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q And all the cooperation you were asked about as to

5 whether or not you were entrapping people, Judge Mishler

6 actually asked you to continue that; is that right?

7 A Yes, sir.

8 Q Take a look at Exhibit 3500-22-K for King, the

9 transcript of your sentencing; isn't that right?

10 A Yes, sir.

11 Q Do you recall being asked about a man named Donald

12 Fletcher?

13 A Yes, sir.

14 Q And refresh our memory who Donald Fletcher was?

15 A He was a sales manager for my Who's Who, who was

16 subsequently fired by me, in addition, was arrested and

17 pled guilty, as I understand it.

18 Q Now, Mr. Fletcher is the one who wrote to Judge

19 Mishler at your sentencing; is that right?

20 A Yes.

21 Q Where he said you are a big liar; is that correct?

22 A Yes, sir.

23 Q And during this time -- by the way, during the time
24 period from 1994 to 1991 -- 1984 to 1991, were you a big
25 liar?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5257
Watstein-redirect/White


1 A Absolutely, unfortunate, yes.

2 Q And take a look at that transcript, page 3, line 17.

3 MR. JENKS: Mr. White, what page?

4 MR. WHITE: Page 3, line 17.

5 MR. JENKS: I will object to what the Court said

6 in the record at the time of his sentencing, your Honor.

7 MR. WHITE: I am asking him to read it to

8 himself.

9 THE COURT: As of now -- did I interrupt you?

10 MR. JENKS: I am finished, your Honor.

11 THE COURT: As of now all counsel said was to

12 look at it himself. We will see what happens after that.

13 We want to have a little bit of a mystery in this once in

14 a while.

15 A Yes, sir.

16 Q All right.

17 If you could also take a look at that transcript

18 at page 13, lines 13 and 14.

19 A Yes, sir.

20 Q Now, without reading from it, can you say what, if

21 anything, Judge Mishler said at your sentencing with

22 regard to Mr. Fletcher?

23 MR. TRABULUS: Objection.
24 MR. JENKS: Objection.
25 THE COURT: Sustained.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CS R, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5258
Watstein-redirect/White


1 The mystery didn't last too long.

2 Q Now, you were asked yesterday by Mr. Trabulus about

3 whether or not you had engaged -- whether or not you knew

4 at the time you were doing these things, these crimes,

5 that you were engaged in a scheme to defraud. Do you

6 remember those questions?

7 A Yes, sir.

8 Q And you answered at least twice, you did not, due to

9 your, quote, ignorance; do you remember that?

10 A Yes, sir.

11 Q And are you an attorney?

12 A No.

13 Q Do you have any legal training of any kind?

14 A No.

15 Q And are you familiar -- were you familiar at that

16 time with the federal mail fraud statute?

17 A No, sir.

18 Q Were you familiar at that time of the elements of the

19 crime of mail fraud?

20 A No, sir.

21 Q Now, when you told people in your Who's Who business,

22 that when they were nominated, when they really came from

23 mail business, did you believe it was misleading?
24 A Yes, I did.
25 Q Did you believe it was dishonest?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5259
Watstein-redirect/White


1 A Yes.

2 Q Did you believe it was wrong?

3 A Absolutely.

4 Q Did you know that you shouldn't be doing it?

5 A Yes, sir.

6 Q When you told people there was a committee that

7 considered applications at your Who's Who business, did

8 you believe that was misleading?

9 A Yes, sir.

10 Q Did you believe it was dishonest?

11 A Yes.

12 Q Did you believe it was wrong?

13 A Yes, sir.

14 Q Did you believe that you shouldn't be doing it?

15 A Yes.

16 Q When you told customers these things, did you believe

17 you were getting money from them under false pretenses?

18 A Yes.

19 Q Can you explain what you meant yesterday in answer to

20 Mr. Trabulus' questions about your ignorance of the law at

21 that point in time?

22 MR. TRABULUS: Objection, your Honor, to form.

23 THE COURT: Sustained.
24 Q Can you explain what you meant yesterday regarding
25 the ignorance that you referred to?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5260
Watstein-redirect/White


1 MR. TRABULUS: Objection, your Honor.

2 THE COURT: Sustained.

3 MR. WHITE: With respect to the form of the

4 question?

5 THE COURT: No. Substance.

6 MR. WHITE: The witness cannot explain his answer

7 from yesterday? I am puzzled.

8 THE COURT: The witness can explain some of his

9 answers. If I find they are not admissible, he cannot

10 explain others. Yes, th at's right.

11 MR. WHITE: Okay.

12 Q Mr. Trabulus asked you whether or not you had an

13 intent to defraud anyone at the time you were

14 committing -- you were running your Who's Who business?

15 A Yes, sir.

16 Q And you answered no?

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q Can you explain what you mean or what you meant by

19 that?

20 MR. TRABULUS: Objection.

21 THE COURT: Overruled.

22 MR. WHITE: I got it right that time.

23 THE COURT: That one you got right.
24 A I didn't understand the legal significance of that
25 question.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5261
Watstein-redirect/White


1 It was clear that I intended to take advantage of

2 people, to mislead them, to take their money and do things

3 that were improper. I just didn't have the technical

4 knowledge of the law as of that moment.

5 In May of 1990, when the law was explained to me,

6 I realized in fact that my defrauding of the people was in

7 fact improper and illegal.

8 MR. SCHOER: Judge, may we have an instruction

9 that this witness' interpretation of the law is not

10 binding on the jury, and that your Honor will instruct

11 them as to what the law is, and what is and what is not a

12 crime?

13 MR. WHITE: Then maybe Mr. Trabulus shouldn't

14 have asked about it yesterday.

15 THE COURT: This is going to be the last, because

16 one of the jurors has to leave at 5:15, as I am advised.

17 Therefore, let me tell you that this witness'

18 view of the law is not the law. You are to pay no

19 attention to his view of the law.

20 The only reason I allowed this is because it was

21 brought up on cross-examination. This is his view of what

22 he was doing in a similar business. But as far a s the

23 law, what mail fraud is, what intent to deceive is, that
24 you will wait to hear from me.
25 Therefore, this witness' view of the law is to be

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5262
Watstein-redirect/White


1 disregarded by you.

2 His intent to do what he was doing is another

3 matter.

4 We are going to take a recess at this point.

5 You may step down, Mr. Watstein.

6 (Whereupon, at this time the witness left the

7 witness stand.)

8 THE COURT: We are going to recess until 9:30 on

9 Monday.

10 Please do not discuss the case among yourselves

11 or anyone else. Keep an open mind.

12 Enjoy the weekend. We will recess until 9:30.

13 Whoever is getting to an appointment, drive

14 carefully.

15 We will see you on Monday morning.

16 (Whereupon, at this time the jury left the

17 courtroom.)

18 THE COURT: What is going to happen on Monday?

19 MR. WHITE: One moment, your Honor.

20 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the

21 proceedings.)

22 MR. WHITE: I guess -- Monday is when we go to

23 3:15; is that right, your Honor?
24 THE COURT: Yes.
25 MR. WHITE: There is Mr. Watstein, obviously to

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5263

1 continue for a while.

2 We have two customers from out of town.

3 THE COURT: I forgot to tell the jury we are

4 quitting at 3:15, but I did tell them the other day.

5 MR. WALLENSTEIN: Yes.

6 MR. WHITE: The two customers from out of town

7 are Karen Wood, and Charles Smith, if we can insert them.

8 THE COURT: Then you will put Mr. Watstein back

9 on?

10 MR. WHITE: That's my plan. I am not letting

11 them go, letting him go, y our Honor, based on what

12 happened the last time.

13 THE COURT: What happens after Mr. Watstein? The

14 government rests?

15 MR. WHITE: I wish.

16 MR. TRABULUS: So do we.

17 MR. GEDULDIG: From your mouth to God's ears.

18 MR. WHITE: There are more customers and more

19 tapes.

20 THE COURT: Who are you bringing in next then?

21 MR. WHITE: I have to tell you I don't know yet.

22 We are juggling a lot of customers' schedules.

23 THE COURT: Among what customers are you bringing
24 in?
25 MR. WHITE: Let me consult.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5264

1 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the

2 proceedings.)

3 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, in addition to the people

4 I mentioned, on deck for next week sometime will be

5 Richard Searle, S E A R L E, Thomas Skonie, S K O N I E,

6 Fred Simmen, S I M M E N. And that's what we got lined

7 up. That's potentially for next week.

8 THE COURT: Very well.

9 MR. WHITE: I am getting a note here from

10 Mr. West, he is having a problem on Monday. Perhaps a

11 direction from you will go further than mine.

12 THE COURT: Bring him in.

13 MR. DUNN: While I am doing that, my client asked

14 me to inform the Court, he just wants to let you know he

15 is not showing any disrespect for the Court when he gets

16 up. His condition is somewhat worsening.

17 THE COURT: That's Mr. Rubin?

18 MR. DUNN: Yes.

19 THE COURT: I know that. You told me that

20 before. We have been told that.

21 MR. DUNN: He wanted me to let you know about it

22 again.

23 THE COURT: No disrespect. Sorry he needs to go
24 through all of that.
25 MR. DUNN: Thank you.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM O FFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5265

1 MR. SCHOER: If I can speak to the issue of the

2 witnesses, I am looking at my list --

3 THE COURT: Before you do that, please.

4 Mr. Watstein, you are still on the witness stand

5 being questioned. You will have to return on Monday.

6 Now, I understand you will have some kind of

7 problem?

8 MR. WATSTEIN: I am going to Alabama this evening

9 and Florida. I will be arriving in Florida beyond

10 midnight on Sunday. It is physically impossible to be

11 here on Monday.

12 THE COURT: You will have to cancel your flight

13 to Alabama, or whatever you are going to do, and I am

14 directing you to be back here on Monday. Sorry,

15 Mr. Watstein. We are not going to extend your testimony

16 any further. You will cancel your flight or have someone

17 cover it or do whatever you want to do.

18 MR. WATSTEIN: May I speak?

19 THE COURT: Yes.

20 MR. WATSTEIN: This is my son's one day in

21 school, a special school, that I can see him one day a

22 year. I sacrifice today, I will not be able to see my son

23 for several months.
24 THE COURT: When is the day that you are going to
25 see him?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5266

1 MR. WATSTEIN: Tomorrow, sir.

2 THE COURT: Why can't you leave on Saturday

3 night?

4 MR. WATSTEIN: The date runs from tomorrow to

5 10:00 o'clock on Sunday. There are no flights available

6 coming back. I will attempt to do it. But I don't

7 believe it is possible.

8 THE COURT: What makes you believe you can come

9 back on Tuesday?

10 MR. WATSTEIN: Normally it is easier to get back

11 from the south to the north on a Monday.

12 THE COURT: What school is your son in?

13 MR. WATSTEIN: Painted Rock, your Honor.

14 THE COURT: What kind of school is that?

15 MR. WATSTEIN: A school for children with

16 difficulties. There is only a limited amount of

17 visituations permitted. It is the only one permitted for

18 quite a while. He has been anticipating it.

19 With your permission I will do everything I

20 possibly can to come back. I am sure I can come back on

21 Tuesday. Leaving Sunday night I am told it is physically

22 impossible, no flights available from the south to the

23 north.
24 THE COURT: All right.
25 Do you want to step outside for a minute?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5267

1 MR. WATSTEIN: Yes, sir.

2 (The witness leaves the courtroom.)

3 THE COURT: Anyone oppose that application to put

4 him on Tuesday, if he can't come back Monday?

5 MR. DUNN: No opposition.

6 THE COURT: I was going to do it anyway.

7 MR. WALLENSTEIN: I am flattered you asked.

8 THE COURT: I have to ask you. You have a due

9 process right to be heard at every stage.

10 Call Mr. Watstein.

11 MR. WHITE: That has a domino effect before you

12 do that.

13 If Mr. Watstein is not going to testify on

14 Monday, we may then put Mr. Saffer, S A F F E R, who is

15 also cooperating. And it would break up his testimony,

16 which we will do if necessary. But I know there was

17 objections raised before.

18 THE COURT: Can't you put other people on who

19 will not be on on Monday instead? You have so many

20 witnesses. Can't you get some of the others in?

21 MR. WHITE: I will try. And we have tapes to

22 play and everything. And I will try to do that. If push

23 came to shove, and we needed Mr. Saffer, I didn't want
24 screaming t hat we didn't give notice.
25 THE COURT: You bring in enough witnesses to

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5268

1 cover the eventuality of Mr. Watstein not being here,

2 because it looks like he will not be here on Monday, even

3 if you have to start with the other cooperator, which I

4 don't think is a smart thing to do.

5 MR. WHITE: I didn't want to do it.

6 THE COURT: Whatever. But we will finish

7 Mr. Watstein on Tuesday morning, if we can.

8 MR. WHITE: Okay.

9 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the

10 proceedings.)

11 THE COURT: Mr. Watstein, make every effort to

12 get back here on Monday. If not we will expect you on

13 Tuesday.

14 MR. WATSTEIN: Thank you very much, sir.

15 MR. TRABULUS: One other matter.

16 THE COURT: I think Mr. Schoer was talking about

17 something.

18 MR. TRABULUS: I am sorry.

19 MR. SCHOER: I am looking at the list of

20 witnesses from the 3500 material that we were provided,

21 and based on the indictment as I understand it, there are

22 still 44 witnesses who need to be called with respect to

23 receiving mail on the substantive counts.
24 Of the five people he just named as the next
25 witnesses, two of them are not even in that 44 group.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5269

1 There are other customers that are not even related to the

2 indictment.

3 I submit their testimony is cumulative. If we

4 are going to have 44 more, why do we have to have

5 additional ones?

6 THE COURT: Maybe you will not have 44 more. I

7 assume the government is not going to call all these

8 witnesses who are on the list.

9 MR. WHITE: I am not, your Honor. I do not

10 intend at this point to call them. I am trying to shorten

11 it to cut out people.

12 Also, I think Mr. Schoer --

13 THE COURT: You just added two.

14 MR. WHITE: Which two?

15 THE COURT: Mr. Schoer said you added people.

16 MR. WHITE: They were all on the list.

17 MR. SCHOER: I am not saying we were not given

18 notice of them. They are members, or relate to membership

19 issue. But they are not one of the named people in the

20 counts of the indictment.

21 MR. JENKS: Substantive counts.

22 MR. TRABULUS: In the substantive count. If we

23 are going to have 44 more in the substantive counts, I
24 believe some relating to the substantive -- not relating,
25 they are cumulative.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5270

1 MR. WHITE: Mr. Schoer is legally mistaken. I

2 don't have to bring in a custom er to prove the mailing, I

3 can prove that independently of that. I don't have to

4 have that customer come in. I have to prove a scheme to

5 defraud and mailing.

6 It so happened the way I drafted the indictment

7 was that each mailing related to a particular victim. I

8 don't have to have that person come in, if I can prove

9 that the mailing was made and it was in furtherance of the

10 scheme to defraud without them.

11 THE COURT: As to the substantive counts you have

12 to proof each one of those.

13 MR. WHITE: Yes, but I have to prove that the

14 mailing was in furtherance of the scheme. I can prove

15 that that mailing was made without necessarily calling the

16 customer in.

17 THE COURT: The mailing, yes.

18 MR. JENKS: Don't you have to prove that the

19 mailing was received, the customer actually received the

20 mailing?

21 MR. WHIT E: It depends what it is. I have to

22 prove that it was mailed.

23 THE COURT: As to all of these counts in the
24 pages 14 through 18 of the indictment.
25 How do you intend to prove these counts?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5271

1 MR. WHITE: A, there was a scheme to defraud. B,

2 that those mailings, A, were made, and from what they are,

3 and the other testimony, although the customer is not

4 here, there is sufficient evidence that it was in

5 furtherance of the scheme.

6 For example, if I have 25 customers come in and

7 say that these are the cards, or this is the lead card I

8 got in the mail, or the letter I got in the mail, and we

9 have cooperators and others testifying about the scheme to

10 defraud, if the mailings are admitted, most of them have

11 postmarks on them, which is proof of the mailing.

12 THE COURT: How do you prove that the mailing is

13 tied up with any particular defendant?

14 MR. WHITE: That can be done through the other

15 documents.

16 In other words, each purchase is in a packet that

17 relates the order --

18 THE COURT: You are going to do it by documentary

19 evidence?

20 MR. JENKS: That's what I want to ask.

21 MR. WHITE: Yes. I didn't mean to belabor the

22 point.

23 MR. SCHOER: For example, there are invoices
24 here. How do you prove the invoices were ever actually
25 mailed unless he calls the member who received that?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5272

1 MR. JENKS: Take count 38, that's the point,

2 Judge, if you take count 38, it says that on 11/12/93 an

3 invoice was in fact mailed from Who's Who Worldwide.

4 How do you prove an invoice was in fact mailed?

5 There is no postal stamp or mark on the invoice. How do

6 you prove that?

7 THE COURT: I don't know.

8 MR. WHITE: Testimony from an employee of the

9 company saying it was the regular practice to send this

10 out, this type of document by mail is sufficient, your

11 Honor.

12 There is a variety of different types of mailings

13 set forth.

14 THE COURT: You better -- what you better do is

15 try to assemble a chart of some type to show all of this

16 for me at least. Because it is getting very confusing at

17 this point. I think you ought to take a look at United

18 States against LaBarbara, and I was just -- several of the

19 mail counts were reversed where I tried a case involving

20 union labor racketeering. And they -- several counts of

21 the mailings were dismissed. I am not sure it is similar

22 to this. But you ought to take a look at it.

23 MR. WHITE: I will.
24 THE COURT: I assume you have evidence of a
25 conspiracy in this case. I have not heard it yet.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5273

1 MR. WHITE: We have cooperators who will testify

2 in addition to Mr. West.

3 THE COURT: A word to the wise, that's all.

4 MR. WHITE: It is coming.

5 MR. SCHOER: I want to get back to the point of

6 objecting to the introduction of witnesses who are

7 cumulative, and particularly on the list we were reviewing

8 just now, Mr. Skonie and/or Mr. or Ms. Searle, who do not

9 relate to the substantive counts. I think there has to

10 come a time that the Court has to tell the government that

11 these people are cumulative and that they shouldn't be

12 called.

13 MR. WHITE: Their argument is contradictory.

14 They are saying in order to prove these counts I have to

15 bring everybody in.

16 MR. SCHOER: They are not in those counts.

17 THE COURT: One at a time, please.

18 MR. SCHOER: I am sorry.

19 MR. WHITE: Putting as I should that argument,

20 what the government alleged is a five year scheme to

21 defraud.

22 So far we have heard from about a dozen

23 customers. I don't think it is excessive to have a couple
24 of people not listed specifically in the indictment as
25 proof of the scheme to defraud there on in.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5274

1 THE COURT: I don't either, not when there are

2 50,000 people or members in the organization. I certainly

3 don't think it is cumulative. And, therefore, I deny your

4 motion to limit those two witnesses.

5 Anything else, Mr. Schoer?

6 MR. SCHOER: No, Judge, thank you.

7 MR. TRABULUS: Your Hon or, in giving the limiting

8 instruction that Mr. Schoer had requested before, your

9 Honor used the term similar business, or similar

10 businesses in making, I guess, a comparison of Mr. West's

11 business, and the business of Who's Who Worldwide and

12 sterile.

13 Although certainly they were similar since they

14 were both Who's Who, it could be read by the jury to

15 involve further similarities.

16 THE COURT: You might be right, what do you

17 suggest I say?

18 I could mention to them when I mentioned Friday

19 the witness Watstein was in a similar business, in no way

20 did I make a determination, which is, of course, yours to

21 make if there is such similarity. And you are not to

22 consider my statement.

23 The only reason I made the statement is because
24 they were both in Who's Who.
25 You conform any curative charge you want.



HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5275

1 MR. TRABULUS: I will work on wording similar to

2 what your Honor said, and perhaps there is an appropriate

3 time in the redirect or the recross where that instruction

4 can be given.

5 THE COURT: I will wait until there is an

6 appropriate time so it will not stand out as badly as if I

7 did it immediately.

8 I think you are right. I will do it. But you

9 give me the wording you want.

10 MR. TRABULUS: Thank you.

11 THE COURT: I put the burden on you,

12 Mr. Trabulus.

13 MR. TRABULUS: It is all right.

14 MR. NELSON: Based upon the offer Mr. White had

15 made with respect to the order of witnesses he might be

16 presenting on Monday, I have some objection or qualms with

17 respect to the presentation.

18 The interruption of Mr. West's testimony for the

1 9 calling of another cooperating witness.

20 I have no problem for accommodating the customers

21 coming out of town to testify or accommodating Mr. West,

22 but I believe it might interfere with the jury's ability

23 to what is taking place in the course of the trial. In
24 that sense the right of the confrontation of each of the
25 defendant's in the case, to have one cooperating witness

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5276

1 testimony interrupted for another cooperating witness, and

2 then going to the redirect and recross for the first

3 cooperating witness and turning back for the second.

4 I would suggest there are at least 60 tapes. We

5 heard four or five so far. But that between live

6 customers testifying on Monday, and the recordings that

7 the government is in a position, and I assume will play,

8 that it could qui te well fill Monday and not present the

9 problem for the Court.

10 THE COURT: It is a reasonable alternative. Why

11 can't you do that instead of starting with another

12 cooperative witness, which is more of a major witness, and

13 we'll try not to break it up. Although I don't believe

14 there is anything prejudicial about it. In fact,

15 sometimes it is very helpful, but the lawyers have more

16 time to prepare. There is always an upside on everything.

17 MR. WHITE: That is my preference to do it the

18 way Mr. Nelson suggests.

19 THE COURT: Do you have enough tapes to play that

20 would last the rest of the day in addition to the two

21 witnesses? Or perhaps you can bring in three or four of

22 those witnesses. I would prefer that rather than start

23 with another cooperating witness.
24 MR. WHITE: Considering it is a short day, it is
25 more likely we c an.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5277

1 While there are a lot of tapes, not all of them

2 are going to be played in full.

3 THE COURT: Why don't you figure out over the

4 weekend what tapes you will play and play them.

5 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, that's my -- that was my

6 original intent. I only brought up the other cooperator

7 because I wasn't sure if we would run out. I know your

8 Honor doesn't want us to run out.

9 THE COURT: I think it would be better and fairer

10 not to start with the other cooperator until we get

11 through with Mr. Watstein, so we can more or less go

12 through.

13 I don't mind an interruption from time to time.

14 I don't believe it is depriving anybody of the right to

15 confrontation, but it would be better for everybody,

16 continuity wise, to do it at one time.

17 MR. WHITE: I will endeavor to do that.

18 As a general matter, it is not so simple to move

19 customers in and out. 90 percent are from out of town.

20 They need a little lead time at a minimum to make plane

21 reservations.

22 THE COURT: You have been doing a good job.

23 Continue to do it. After all, you have the power that
24 defense counsel all say you have, the overwhelming mighty
25 power.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5278

1 MR. WHITE: I am not sure about that when you try

2 to convince someone to get on a plane the next day.

3 THE COURT: I hear it in every case, the great

4 power of the federal government.

5 MR. WHITE: I hear about it, too.

6 THE COURT: Well, use it.

7 MR. WHITE: I also have the two cases on prior

8 consistent statements from the other day that you asked me

9 to make copies of .

10 MR. WALLENSTEIN: Perhaps we can borrow

11 Mr. Watstein's limousine to bring the customers in.

12 (Case on trial adjourned until 9:30 o'clock

13 Monday, February 23, 1998.)

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23
24
25

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5279

1 I-N-D-E-X

2

3 W-I-T-N-E-S-S-E-S

4

5 PAGE LINE

6 S T E V E N W A T S T E I N.................. 5121 1

7 CROSS-EXAMINATION (cont'd)....................... 5121 15

8 CROSS-EXAMINATION................................ 5150 14

9 CROSS-EXAMINATION................................ 5208 17

10 REDIRECT EXAMINATION............................. 5247 5

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23
24
25

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

Unholy Federal Trials  - The Illicit Smashing of Who's Who Worldwide Excecutive Club


Worst Lawyer Of All Time; - The Who's Who Worldwide Registry Tragedy
Thomas FX Dunn demonstrates some thirty-eight discrete reasons to qualify himself
over and again as perhaps the worst lawyer of all time